Spaying a snail?

[leila]

I tried to post this in breeding but it wouldnt let me.

Ok, so I just had the idea that since there are so many snails making so many eggs what would be the best way to keep the eggs from being laid in the first place? So I figured that since they are hermaphrodites one could supposedly only spay the specimen and it wouldn't ever lay eggs but it could still use its male parts to breed with others.

I know that snail surgery is not really an option for most people but I just wanted to see if anyone else has ever thought of this, or even pulled it off, and maybe someone who knows a vet could ask if it was something that might be possible in the future

[axoloa]

Dec 15, 2011 4:55:47 GMT leila said:

I tried to post this in breeding but it wouldnt let me.

Ok, so I just had the idea that since there are so many snails making so many eggs what would be the best way to keep the eggs from being laid in the first place? So I figured that since they are hermaphrodites one could supposedly only spay the specimen and it wouldn't ever lay eggs but it could still use its male parts to breed with others.

I know that snail surgery is not really an option for most people but I just wanted to see if anyone else has ever thought of this, or even pulled it off, and maybe someone who knows a vet could ask if it was something that might be possible in the future

I know a few people that did this with a pair of sharp skissors while their snails were mateing. The snails both survived and have never been able to mate since. Me personaly am completly against it and I can imagine it would be pretty painfull for the snail. would rather not know anyone willing to treat a snail in such a cruel and heartless way. I think its sick and wrong. Im dont associate with that family anymore for that reason. I hope you were not considering anything like this :/

[foghog]

you know someone who used a pair of scissors and snipped the female reproduction system and left the male reproduction system, and both snails survived fine? interesting.

[axoloa]

Dec 15, 2011 6:03:59 GMT foghog said:

you know someone who used a pair of scissors and snipped the female reproduction system and left the male reproduction system, and both snails survived fine? interesting.

its not interesting its discusting and I havent spoken to the guy since. that family is out of my life now for good. it anoys me just talking about it. The most anoying thing of all is that they only had 2 snails. they could have just seperated them.

[pinkunicorn]

Is removing the eggs once they've been laid too big of a hassle? You don't need but to poke around the substrate a few times a week to see if there's any eggs, can easily do that while changing the food.

Dunno, I figure spaying a snail is a bit excessive, considering just how easy their populations are to control. Aquatic snails might be different, I don't have experience of them. And of course, there is no way to prevent causing pain to the snail, or knowing if the snail feels long term pain as a result of cutting the genitals. I would not wish to cause such pain to my snails.

[latebloomer]

What an utterly disgusting, heartless thing to do. I feel bad enough about having my dog spayed, even with all consideration humanly possible to prevent stress or pain.How hard can it be to check for eggs and freeze them.

[axoloa]

Dec 15, 2011 11:31:44 GMT pinkunicorn said:

Is removing the eggs once they've been laid too big of a hassle? You don't need but to poke around the substrate a few times a week to see if there's any eggs, can easily do that while changing the food.

Dunno, I figure spaying a snail is a bit excessive, considering just how easy their populations are to control. Aquatic snails might be different, I don't have experience of them. And of course, there is no way to prevent causing pain to the snail, or knowing if the snail feels long term pain as a result of cutting the genitals. I would not wish to cause such pain to my snails.

Dec 15, 2011 12:02:27 GMT latebloomer said:

What an utterly disgusting, heartless thing to do. I feel bad enough about having my dog spayed, even with all consideration humanly possible to prevent stress or pain.How hard can it be to check for eggs and freeze them.

I agree with both of you entirely and I myself am also discusted that he would do such a thing. Im actualy quiet embarassed that I even knew him. Hopefully, anyone even thinking it may be worth doing it will see this thread first and decide against it. I hope one day he has his genitals cut of against his own will and see how he likes it.

[coyote]

Good grief, that was an unthinkable thing your former acquaintance did. Keeping breeding-age adults of the same species separated or doing regular egg checks in the tank are easy enough to do.

I don't know of any vets that would do spay surgeries on snails. I doubt it's something they are taught in vet school (I could be wrong, though).

[leila]

I totally did not mean to offend anyone with this post, I was just curious, I definitely have no plans whatsoever to ever attempt this myself.

axoloa what ur (ex)friend did was terrible, but at the risk of sounding like a terrible person, i do find this kind of thing interesting and although it was cruel the fact that it was successful surprises me...

and to anyone thinking of doing this, i would just like to say that i do not support this, though i might if veterinary science finds a way to do it safely and humanely.

and as for the destruction of the eggs, i dont see anything wrong with that, but you have too keep in mind that there are types of snails whose babies hatch inside them so destruction is not an option, and some people simply dont have the stomach to kill something they consider alive

[axoloa]

Dec 16, 2011 1:35:50 GMT leila said:

I totally did not mean to offend anyone with this post, I was just curious, I definitely have no plans whatsoever to ever attempt this myself.

axoloa what ur (ex)friend did was terrible, but at the risk of sounding like a terrible person, i do find this kind of thing interesting and although it was cruel the fact that it was successful surprises me...

and to anyone thinking of doing this, i would just like to say that i do not support this, though i might if veterinary science finds a way to do it safely and humanely.

and as for the destruction of the eggs, i dont see anything wrong with that, but you have too keep in mind that there are types of snails whose babies hatch inside them so destruction is not an option, and some people simply dont have the stomach to kill something they consider alive

Hi leila, I wasnt getting at you personaly dont worry. I dont think you offended anyone with what you were saying, you were just questioning if it was something that a vet would be able to do. no harm in that at all
my reply was not directed at you, but just at those who are thinking about carrying thrugh such a procedure themselfs. It is very inhumain, and sick, and although we dont know this for a fact, I personaly beleive it would be very painfull for the snails, and it does infact sicken me to know that theirs people in the world that would do this.

[axoloa]

Dec 15, 2011 23:51:54 GMT coyote said:

Good grief, that was an unthinkable thing your former acquaintance did. Keeping breeding-age adults of the same species separated or doing regular egg checks in the tank are easy enough to do.

I don't know of any vets that would do spay surgeries on snails. I doubt it's something they are taught in vet school (I could be wrong, though).

I know coyote, I totaly agree. I guess some people in the world just dont have the correct knowlege or the right kind of heart for keeping creatures like snails. Its things like this that make you question if maybe a licence should be required in order to own snails (or any animals for that matter), and exams to prove that you have the correct understanding of the species to own it. I know most people would think twice about hurting these creatures if they had paid out a few hundred just for the right to keep them. Unfortunatly I cant see this ever happen just simply because the government dosent see this as an issue. Also, this would unfairly affect many people who have no intension of harming their creatures in any way and do have the relevent knowledge and understanding of their species to own them, so theirs more than one side to argue where thats concerned. But thats just my personal opinion on the matter.

[foghog]

Dec 16, 2011 1:35:50 GMT leila said:

I totally did not mean to offend anyone with this post, I was just curious, I definitely have no plans whatsoever to ever attempt this myself.

axoloa what ur (ex)friend did was terrible, but at the risk of sounding like a terrible person, i do find this kind of thing interesting and although it was cruel the fact that it was successful surprises me...

I found it interesting. but I found using scissors even more so. the person really didn't spay the snail anyways...they just messed up their reproduction organs obviously, which prevented reproduction. sort of like kicking someone in the nuts and calling it a vasectomy. but science and knowledge is science and knowledge.

[axoloa]

Dec 16, 2011 5:03:15 GMT foghog said:

Dec 16, 2011 1:35:50 GMT leila said:

I totally did not mean to offend anyone with this post, I was just curious, I definitely have no plans whatsoever to ever attempt this myself.

axoloa what ur (ex)friend did was terrible, but at the risk of sounding like a terrible person, i do find this kind of thing interesting and although it was cruel the fact that it was successful surprises me...

I found it interesting. but I found using scissors even more so. the person really didn't spay the snail anyways...they just messed up their reproduction organs obviously, which prevented reproduction. sort of like kicking someone in the nuts and calling it a vasectomy. but science and knowledge is science and knowledge.

exept a kick in the genetals wouldent usualy stop you from making babies. Id say it was much more like cutting them in half and calling it vasectomy!! It wouldent suprise me if the pain was similar to it either.

[rosiesnail2]

That is a truley revolting topic. Mating I a natural part of there lives, just like humans other wise the world would have no humans if we all got spayed/neutered. I'm sad when my snails don't mate because I love seeing all the baby snails. Really, Horrible to think about

[ness]

As far as spaying is concerned it is likely to affect mammals in a different way to snails, so it would be hard or maybe impossible to predict the results as regards quality of life/ill effects/hormone problems/pain or irritation and how long that would last etc, for a snail, based on mammal information.

Yes it was shocking that someone actually snipped the snail's organ off. Awful. Those people couldn't have known the pain level or any after effects. It could have become infected etc. That was a total disregard for the snails wellbeing. As for spaying a snail properly I doubt that there is a way to get this done. Vets are not trained in snail surgery, neither are they likely to be able to offer any kind of pain relief. I see the point about what to do when keeping snails who give birth to live young but spaying is not likely to ever be available.

I agree that snails should be allowed to partake in their natural behaviour, as should other animals. Though I do have to admit that some snails do suffer ill health after laying eggs (A. reticulata commonly do but not always). I think it would be better to keep a reticulata with a fulica or other tank mates as a way of breeding control than to consider any kind of surgery on it!

I have no answers for the Iredali though. These often appear to not appreciate having other species around, so the only birth control option is to keep them on their own/split them up before they mature enough to mate.

[brunni]

The logistics could not work, otherwise the fulica invasion in Florida and other countries would be over. Spay mosquitos and that's the end of malaria !
Like Ness said for mammals it may be an option.

[bugz2go]

Hello everyone, I know this forum is a place for people to talk about their snails, asking questions and sharing knowledge to improve everyones own snail keeping knowledge but I fear that if any FUTURE members reading the 'self spaying method' it might give the wrong impression and after the story goes round it might be twisted and some sicko might actually try it themselves. My opinion now.... the live bearing species are no way as prolific as the fulica for example thus making them very sought after so if anyone had surplus then someone would love to re home them I'm sure. This obviously goes for many species out there. With the prolific egg layers, whats wrong with a daily egg hunt ? I do this every day without fail and I have many snails, its not an issue. If they are collected 'fresh' they are not developed so to freeze them or use as fish food (for example) it is the most humane way of controlling numbers. How anyone can actually put a snail through something as horrific as that I really don't know. Well done Johnathan for keeping a wide birth from your ex friend, he doesn't deserve to keep any animal at all. If it was a dog or cat and the RSPCA found out about it they would be named and shamed on public TV and banned from keeping any pet for life but I don't suppose it would even make it to the local papers if it was to a snail though as it is only us snail keepers that care about them. Dogs and cats are spayed professionally by a VET for both personal and the animals health reasons, this in most cases can't be avoided but if we just check for eggs every day or so we are being far nicer to the little creatures.
Regards
Paul
www.bugz2go.com

[latebloomer]

I had planned to get Iradalei, but after finding that they are livebearing and that they dont like to be kept with other species, I know that I will have to give up on the idea. On the subject of other cold blooded creatures,I love reptiles and amphibians and would jump at the chance to handle anything alive but would cross the road to avoid walking past a dead frog!

[leila]

hey everyone, i havent been on here in a while but ive got slugs again and they are currently mating so i was doing some research just to refresh my memory and know when i should be expecting babies and i stumbled across this wikipedia page (yes i know anyone can change the pages so it may not be completely accurate)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophallation

basically its something that both banana and leopard slugs (both of which i have kept) sometimes get stuck together after mating and to fix that the penis is literally gnawed off by one of the slugs, making them only capable of female reproduction. so if this was artificially done to both slugs the first time they mate they would not be sterile, but would not be able to mate with each other again

and also question for anyone who know for sure... I have never actually heard any real proof saying that a hermaphroditic animal is not capable of inpregnating themselves because i have had wild caught slugs that have laid eggs alone... some believe they were already pregnant, are capable of storing sperm from previous mates and mating with themselves

another good link on mating rituals with videos of the apophallation
bio.research.ucsc.edu/grad/weaver/Pages/project.html

[graemepryce]

I got an iredali before I knew they are said to not like sharing with other species although I did know they were livebearing, which is why I only got one. My Iredali was a bit of a slow grower in her first twelve months, maybe that was why. I must say though, her growth is above average now and she is almost always active and eating a wide range of foods. She shares a tank with 4 other species and doesn't seem to pull away or be distressed by them exploring her or crawling over her. She seems to hang out with my albino jade mostly and is always next to her when they decide to stop and pop back in their shells for a few hours.

This post raises the question for me though, there is no effective way of controlling iredali breeding so should they really be offered as part of the range of pet snails at all? They give their owner no chance to control their population that doesn't involve killing baby snails unless only a single specimen is owned.

[pinkunicorn]

Leila, see my topic on Limax maximus breeding in Problems &Questions forum (or what it's called), you may find it interesting. I've one slug that I think lost its male genitals before I adopted him. I got some video footage of a failed mating, where only one slug displays its penis. Those two are sadly absolutely lovesick, they've tried to mate many times. Twice I've seen a spermatophore remain on the terrarium wall when the height was good for them, at other times just the slime rope as the slugs tumbled on the substratetoo early.

So yes, apophallation does seem to work as a contraceptive although in this case it's accidental! I am not sure if it can safely be done to a snail though... I imagine they know where to bite so there is no necrotic tissue forming etc. possible bad reactions.

The literature says apophallated slugs mate as females only, but I wonder how does this work for leopards who don't have any "tab a slot b" anatomy, but exchange the spermatophore by "pressing" their genitals together... if anyone has info please see my topic and share it! (So this one is more focused on the contraceptive nature of things)

[pinkunicorn]

That banana slug mating study is really fascinating btw. Shame it's last updated in 2006, I wanted to contact the researcher with a question... maybe I'll give it a shot and try theemail addy anyway, and hope it's still working.

[leila]

pinkunicorn, i read that a few days ago actually (showed my friend some pics of how they mate and the look on his face was priceless ) , I've only had one leopard slug back when i was a very young and inexperienced slug keeper. kept him in with all bananas and various snails not knowing his predatoryness i just wondered why he always seemed to be following the other slugs around, luckily nothing ever happened before i released him but i found out later what species he actually was.

and that mating site gave me an idea for maybe how the procedure would be done. it says the slug in one of the photos was injected with a hormone that basically caused an erection, it could be numbed by something (i was thinking orajel a temporary numbing agent for tooth pain that i think would work on any mucus membrane) and then a nice clean snip.

of course all of this i dont think anyone has the skills to perform yet but i think that eventually slugs and snails will be considered house pets and any old vet could perform the procedure.

as far as the orajel goes i was thinking of eventually testing it just on the outside of on of my slugs bodies to see if they react to any sort of touch less than they normally would... this will have to wait tho until after they recover from laying the eggs that im still waiting on.