Snail anger for real! Help! (update: snail soap opera!)

[etana]

Guys, I need ideas. I mentioned this at the bottom of my other Cepaea thread, where I'd gotten them to be less apathetic by giving them a plant to climb on, but a problem I actually did have before came back worse. 

One of my Cepaea hortensis, Lemon, isn't getting along with my Cepaea nemoralis snails. Lemon was the smallest of all my "Yellow Ones" (a common name for my Cepaeas) when I found her, but she had a massive growth spurt and turned out the biggest of all with a very lovely shell. It also seems that she's lost an eye when she was a baby, before I found her, and she grew it back differently. Or maybe it's just mutated. 

Anyway, she's bitten the C. nemoralis snails in the face before when they've been eating the same sweet potato slices, forcing them to retract, but last night I saw something even worse that I'd never seen before. 

She was at the roof of the tank with Frank the orange nemoralis, and they had the fronts of their bodies up (well, down, since they were at the roof, but you get the idea) and they were eye stalk fencing! Seriously, they would swing very fast at each other, hit their eye stalks together, and then both would do the "OWWW!" super quick retraction, and then do it all over again. Repeat many times. Then Frank turned his back at Lemon, Lemon climbed on Frank's shell, Frank did something - I wish I understood snail communication - and Lemon promptly ran incredibly fast to the other end of the tank and retracted there, leaving an eye stalk out, and she didn't come fully out of her shell for hours. 

Later they were staring at each other from a distance looking super grumpy, and even in the morning when I woke up, they were in different positions in the tank but still/again staring at each other looking very, very grumpy, looking like they were mesmerised by each others' eyes. Then they wandered off to sleep.

My near-death-experience Arianta Rudolf has been a bit of a bully as well, pushing his big, rough shell right into others' faces and turning it there, and making other intimidating expressions at smaller snails, especially the Yellows. He's slow and careful with his broken & repaired shell though, so he's not so much of a problem. I've also seen the other snails sort of pay it back by piling up on top of him when he was sleeping in a hole he'd dug for himself. Heh.

But what do I do with Lemon, who's otherwisely in splendid health? Do I have to release her back outside? She's so pretty!

[Cashell]

Very interesting read... Wow! In the years that I've kept Cepaea snails I've never had a serious problem with agression, though I have seen the occasional biting (that had nothing to with mating) and "pushing", but again not very often. I've also never kept Cepaeae Hortensis before, only Nemoralis, so I'm not sure if that has anything to do with it, but these two do often co-exist in the wild and neither aren't normally that aggressive. If you're certain this has nothing to do with mating, as these species do sometimes look like they're "quarreling" when they mate then separate it if you must.

[cliath]

You could buy her a plastic box instead of a proper tank. Or if it's just the nemorailis. You could separate them ( still requires another tank). Keep us updated what ever you do.

[etana]

There was another biting fight between Lemon and Steve, definitely didn't look like flirting because they both kept retracting with every bite and I don't suppose they'd do an inter-species mating ritual anyway. I've heard their ritual is more intense than the Arianta kind, but I would still suppose that they'd kind of...let it happen instead of acting like it hurts?

I took a small plastic container and put the basics in (soil from the tank, a bit of food, calcium, a very small plant) and took Lemon there mid-fight, plus Steve, the other C. hortensis who's Lemon's friend. It's too small but better than constant fights. Thanks for the comments, I'll be updating on the situation.

[Cashell]

Sept 20, 2014 20:48:19 GMT etana said:

There was another biting fight between Lemon and Steve, definitely didn't look like flirting because they both kept retracting with every bite and I don't suppose they'd do an inter-species mating ritual anyway. I've heard their ritual is more intense than the Arianta kind, but I would still suppose that they'd kind of...let it happen instead of acting like it hurts?

I took a small plastic container and put the basics in (soil from the tank, a bit of food, calcium, a very small plant) and took Lemon there mid-fight, plus Steve, the other C. hortensis who's Lemon's friend. It's too small but better than constant fights. Thanks for the comments, I'll be updating on the situation.

Oops... I Did It Again!

The two have different love darts, so brown-lips don't usually have romantic affairs with their relatives, but because they look so similar it's easy to forget they're different... Some people have "claimed" hybrids before, but I'll only believe it when I see it! Anyways, I hope things go well for the snails.

[etana]

It's alright Cashell

Wow, umh, turns out I was right about them "letting it happen" if the biting is intended to be a part of mating.

Lemon and Steve are biting each other gently right now. No lifting of the fronts of the bodies, no swinging at each other, no hitting each other with tentacles, no running off, making u-turns and charging back to bite like Lemon and Frank did last night. Lemon and Steve are most definitely doing the biting lovingly. They keep their faces very close, bite a little, retract a little (but the eyes stay out), then put their faces close again, stare at each other, and bite just a little bit again. 

I think there'll be some very sweet snaily loving to come later tonight. I'm sorry for them for having to live in the small place, but at least they're enjoying their new-found privacy, huh! 

Frank is very calm now, as well. 

Right now I'm totally broke, but I guess that once I'm not, I'll get Lemon & Steve a bigger plastic container to live in, and some decorations, and let them have a happy snail family together. 


ETA: Lemon & Steve are mating right now. What happened before it was very different to what I've seen Ariantas do! So fascinating!

[etana]

All right. I felt so sorry for especially the sweet Steve having to live in the emergency quarantine container, I arranged a meeting for Lemon, Frank and Steve to see how they'd all react to each other. Frank did poke Lemon right in the eye pretty hard, and Lemon promptly retracted. I thought things didn't begin well, but when Lemon came back out of her shell, she made some facial expressions at Frank that I'd never seen before (in fact it looked like she was drooling - she moved her mouth, and her face turned wet) and after that they were quite indifferent about each other.

Frank also went to very playfully climb over Steve, the way my Cepaeas often do. None of them ever retract or have other quick reactions to it, so I've decided it's just fun for them.

I released Lemon, Steve and Frank back into the big tank, and will be watching them of course, but right now things seem calm enough till I can get more good tanks.

[cliath]

Glad to hear things are getting on well again!

[etana]

Yes Cliath, a few days gone by and things are still calm. Lemon slept a long time after returning to the big tank, but yesterday she woke up and had a lonnnnng adventure all around the spider plant while Frank went about his snaily business nearby. So far so good!

[Zorst]

Def sounds like its calmed down and is going good. Fingers crossed it continues.

Zorst

[etana]

It still looks good - I gave my snails a branch with lichen on it, and woke up to Lemon and Frank nibbling away at the lichen almost next to each other. I watched for a while, and at some point Lemon went to Frank, touched his tentacles with her own, Frank startled a bit, but what followed looked like a gentle snaily hug.

[etana]

In case anyone is wondering, I haven't seen a single snaily fight after I released them all back into the main tank.

I only wonder what happened, as in, why they fought and why they stopped. I think ther might be a lot more to snail communication than people think! I've seen snails move their mouths both at me and at each other since, and my
biggest gals has learned to squeak. I wish I had a snail laboratory, lol!

[Zorst]

That sounds great and that things have all settled down and there getting on. Snail communication sure is fun to watch n try to understand.
Zorst

[etana]

Believe it or not the two are attempting to mate. They're kissing gently right now and their love bits are out. I took pictures, will post them later (because I know this is a pics-or-didn't-happen) but now I must observe what happens.

Such a soap opera, from intense fighting to gentle kisses in a few weeks time

[etana]

And now, after hours of kissing (snails are so romantic, haha) they're actually mating. I took pictures again for showing you later. I missed the love dart shooting because I was having breakfast in the kitchen, damnit.

Shame though that if either of them lays eggs after this, there's no way to know it's from this mating because at least Lemon has been with Steve too, and who knows what Frank's been up to.

[Zorst]

! Ahh it's getting more n more like a good soap opera, and isn't it always the way you turn your back for 5 mins and something happens.

Horses r just the same. I once spent nights n hours waiting for a mare to foal down, then as it was about 4am in the morning n no one else was up to make me one I went to make a quick coffee. I wasn't gone 5 mins and I get back to a very proud mare and her new baby. Man the look on that mares face said it all. "See I didn't want an audience ."

This was in the days before we used camera's n the Mare n foal were both fine, the reason I'd stayed up was mare had lost her previous foal.

But back to snails its sounds like they all just want to keep you guessing who did what, n I guess that's going to remain their little secret .

Zorst

[etana]

All right, they finally stopped about a half an hour ago and snailed their separate ways. Lol. Here are pics:


Look at Lemon (the fat one on the left) holding Frank as they kiss! <3


The picture says it all. Or maybe it's a little hard to see, but they were right in the middle of it when I took this picture.

Great story Zorst, and you may be right about my snails' motives too. 

[Zorst]

Good photo's Etana.

Zorst

[etana]

Thanks Zorst

Now they're both on the wall of the tank, fully retracted and sealed. Sure, that many hours of sweet snaily loving gets you tired.

This whole thing is so weird and funny though, complete with how my soap opera stars are the two most beautiful looking snails in the tank.   

I wonder if it's a love-hate-relationship and soon I'll find them angry with each other again, or if they'll stay friends.

[Zorst]

:DLOL! Ahh whats any good soap opera without its love scenes n arguments. I'm sure like here they will give you many hours of enjoyment with there antics n the best thing is its a real life ongoing Soap, love darts n all .

Zorst

[Cashell]

Pardon my laziness as I dind't read every post up to this point, but do my eyes really see a nemoralis and hortensis trying to mate?!

[etana]

Lol it's okay, after the initial posts about the fighting there are a bunch about how things calmed down and stayed calm for a good while.

And yes, they did really mate. I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't seen it myself! Very interesting and totally contradictory to what I thought would happen between these two.

[cliath]

Congrats! Hopefully you'll have some babies soon! I witnessed for the first time some snaily aggression last week! It was interesting...

[etana]

Thanks! There will likely be babies as Lemon has mated with Steve (C. hortensis) too, so I won't ever know exactly who are the mom-dads! Lol.

Oh, what happened with your snails? It is indeed interesting how such a beautiful, slow creature can get so angry and go ahead & fight!

[Zorst]

I hope your snails are ok Claith.

Zorst