|
Post by muddydragon on Nov 25, 2014 22:52:57 GMT
Yesterday i found my beautiful Freyja (black eyed white margie sut, one of an original clutch of 5 suts -now 4 - that were the first margies i bred and hatched) upside down and slightly retracted. I gave her a quick wash righted her and put her by the food, today she hadn't moved and had become much more retracted. So today they meant the creation of the hospital tank (so i can keep a close eye on a snail whenever it is ill so i know food going in and out and can also offer small amounts of lots of variety mashed without risk of other snails eating it). She's come out of her shell looking quite thin but otherwise OK except she doesn't seem interested in eating.
Hopefully she'll start eating soon. Please keep your fingers/tenticles crossed for her.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2014 22:55:27 GMT
I'm really sorry to hear that. Hopefully she will be back to normal in no time!
|
|
|
Post by cliath on Nov 26, 2014 7:27:27 GMT
Really Sorry to here that. All Fingers and tenticals are crossed over here.
|
|
|
Post by etana on Nov 26, 2014 7:37:03 GMT
Fingers & tentacles crossed over here too.
|
|
|
Post by muddydragon on Nov 26, 2014 10:20:58 GMT
Thanks guys.
She looks like she's doing really well today, a lot better than yesterday at least.
Last night when i managed to coax her out of her shell she really struggled to come out due to the depth of retraction. She looked very thin and a deeper pink colour (she's white normally as they age they get more pink-ish) all the texture was more pronouced but closer together looking like weight loss. She wouldn't eat anything (even when i smeared spirulina paste over her mouth area) but did enjoy a VERY long soak in warm water - which i kept refreshing(which happened to have some spirulina in beause the stuff gets everywhere) she just sat in the water fully out (the water level was well below pneumostome level so no risk of drowning). The interesting thing was that over time soaking she came back to her more normal size and colour, her mantle went to the edge of her shell like it should and she looked much fatter again and white again.
This morning she's still looking pretty much like normal just perhaps a little thinner than normal but far better than yesterday, she hasn't eaten anything, but the key factor is that this morning she was still moving about out of her shell eyestalks fully out looking absolutely fine and whilst i watched she decided to dunk her head in the warm water bowl i put in hospital tanks (just a dish of water large enough for them to soak in if they want, next to the heatmat. she wasn't slurping just resting her head in it.
This has got me thinking about not eating and dehydration. The other time snails really seemed to enjoy having a warm water bath in their tank was when they weren't eating after coming out of dormancy (heatmat broke down). they spent most of their time soaking in the bath so much so i had to have one for each snail, once they were eating normally again, no-one was interested in the warm bath. The fact that she appeared to put weight back on quickly during a soak has made me think that perhaps it's not weight loss due to not eating (which got worse so quickly it doesn't seem likely). However if they're not eating then they wont be getting water from their food therefore they could dehydrate (even in a humid tank). This would explain the interest in water baths when not eating therefore soaking up moisture through their skin and her looking a lot better after a soak. Obviously it's just guesswork + observation but it might be worth people considering if they experience similar things.
Anyway back to freyja, she's still sliming about a bit not that entusiastically and not eating but atleast she's not retracted. The new gormet smorgasbord will go in tonight (when not eating i offer a selection of mushed foods, fresh each day until they eat something, yesterday it was fish flakes, spirulina paste, warm mashed sweet potato, warm mashed carrot and part of a lettuce leaf)
|
|
|
Post by etana on Nov 26, 2014 14:20:19 GMT
Good to hear she's doing better, and those are some very interesting observations, thanks for posting them!
|
|
|
Post by muddydragon on Nov 27, 2014 10:20:42 GMT
Well the latest is there's not a whole lot of change. Shes still filling out her shell now which is good and isn't randomly falling over. On the other hand she's still not moving much and is not interested in food. Well she seems to want to be interested... she kept dipping her head towards the food then rearing away from it. She's still in the same position as yesterday hovering over the food almost as if she had done this all night. She also took a very long time to unscrunch her face with it scrunched to on side. Once she did i couldn't see anything wrong with her face or mouth (although of course i didn't see the radula). It's making me wonder if her internal mouth is sore that i cant see. I've been doing some reading of some old threads on here, sadly the prognosis for something like this wasn't good. Apparently green tea may have helped so i'm going to give that a shot tonight i think. Assuming there's a mouth injury i've been trying to find the pH of various foods so i can make sure i'm offering neutral - alkaline foods in the hope they will be more appretising. Unfortunately there's a lot of *insert sware word of choice" out there, which includes saying things like lemons are really alkaline... urmmm NO. so i'm just including this link for others who may want it which is the only one i've found so far which looks accurate. I'm hoping i can find more info soon. i may also try mixing some stuff with limestone flour just to raise the pH of some foods (make more alkaline). www.food-info.net/uk/qa/qa-fp65.htmah-ha another good looking one (this is a pdf): www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDgQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffoodscience.caes.uga.edu%2Fextension%2Fdocuments%2FFDAapproximatepHoffoodslacf-phs.pdf&ei=gQR3VJucCcnU7AalloCYDQ&usg=AFQjCNHKSR2VfEWI7e9_tIzCNqwz84W5Kw&sig2=FE8xM_2pOs363iNZLB_aNg&bvm=bv.80642063,d.ZGU
|
|
|
Post by moon on Nov 27, 2014 11:29:04 GMT
I also have a very retracted aspersa (Ben). I tried everything over the past few months, mashed food, spraying him etc but he has steadily got worse & I just about gave up on him & waited for nature to take it's course.
However, after reading the advice above (thanks muddydragon)I left him in some shallow warm water last night and he managed to come out of his shell and eat something. Unfortunately his body twists round towards his shell where he is so far back inside so he has difficulty moving.
I don't hold out much hope for his survival but at least I can try the same thing for future retracted snails as the dehydration thing makes a lot of sense.
Really hope Freyja will make it.
|
|
|
Post by morningcoffee on Nov 27, 2014 11:38:55 GMT
Sounds like you're trying everything possible, wishing Freyja the best! Perhaps the advice we always give of "try warm baths to encourage a snail out" was more useful, or for different reasons, than we may have thought. Thinking about it, it makes total sense that a retracted snail that's not eating could easily become dehydrated and get even sicker.
|
|
|
Post by muddydragon on Nov 28, 2014 22:08:15 GMT
That's great to hear moon. I hope he starts eating soon. Thanks guys Well the latest update is that she likes spending ALL her time in her waterdish. Today i was very excited as i found a poo! literally i shouted in utter glee "i think that's a poo!" and shoved my fingers in it to break it apart and see what's in it. my boyfriend, who happened to be standing next to me and who is not terribly keen on snails, did not look too impressed or see why i was so excited infact i think it verged on disgust ha! only snaily people get it. Anyway it consisted mostly of mucasy slime, some calcium, a little bit of coir and a tiny bit of something orange. i don't think she's eaten since being retracted but this is a good sign her digestive system might be moving again. Interestingly she pooed in the waterdish. the other time i had snails not eating (after an accidental hibernation) the first thing they did before eating was poo in the water dish. i do think the warm water soak they opt for also helps get their digestive system up and running again. She's looking worryingly thin but atleasat she's not showing any signs of deep retracting again. I'm really keeping my fingers crossed that she starts eating something soon.
|
|
Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
|
Post by Zorst on Nov 28, 2014 23:26:55 GMT
I really hope that she starts eating soon for you and yeah the poo is a great sign and very promising.
I lost one of the Iredalei snails this week, it was happily slimeing around one day, went to sleep as normal then just wouldn't come out of its shell properly the next day?
It wasn't deeply retracted it just didn't want to come out of its shell. It did eventually show an eye stalk out but wouldn't do more than that. I tried warm baths and new fresh food etc, keeping it nice and moist n humid, nothing worked and on the 4th day I very sadly found it dead.
Thankfully its mate is still alive and well, I just couldn't figure out what happened to that snail and all the rest in the tank are fine fit and healthy.
Thanks for the food PH links Ive saved them for future reference.
Anyhow I really hope your snail starts to eat again now.
Zorst
|
|
|
Post by muddydragon on Nov 29, 2014 22:54:05 GMT
Sorry i've not been active on the forum much lately. between me being ill and freyja i've not had much time.
Well the latest news is that there is still no sign of her eating. Today she looked terrible she hasn't retracted but her body is the size of a snail a 1/4 of her size. i'm not sure if she can even move her shell. I'm incredibly worried about her. i'm thinking to "poo" may actually have just been some slime with soil and a bit of carrot stuck to it.
since i found her upside down and retracted on monday i reckon she's not been eating for well over a week by now. I'm pretty sure if she doesn't eat very soon she's had it. So today i took a somewhat drastic measure; I tried to syringe feed her (just the plastic bit not the needle obviously). i made a very very runny sweetpotato mash and once i had coxed her head out i kept her upside down (so gravity could help me) tried pressing it against her mouth area and syringe feeding her. i have no idea if any of it went in. The interesting bit though? the first couple of times the syringe touched before ejecting food she retracted away. once it started dispensing food she didn't. infact she almost tried to reach her mouth to it so it was easier for me to push it in to her mouth area slightly (it all got somewhat obscured by sweet potato) but she kept opening up a hole (no radula or mouth parts obvious though) so i think she was encouraging it. however as i say i've no idea if any went in but she seemed to appreciate the effort atleast and was the most lively and fully out i had seen her in a long time. this seems to support my idea that she wants to eat but just can't for some reason maybe some form of radula damage or something. Her tank mates who are her siblings are all fine so far *touch wood*.
I know it's risky force feeding (or attempting to) but i'm sure it was try that or she dies. I'll keep you all posted when i can.
|
|
|
Post by etana on Nov 30, 2014 6:23:02 GMT
Sorry to hear about Zorst's loss My thoughts are with you and Freyja, muddydragon. I still hope things will work out. Could she absorb nutrients through her skin from her bathwater...? Is that just a legend?
|
|
|
Post by muddydragon on Nov 30, 2014 9:42:21 GMT
thankyou,
As for absorbing nutrients: First of all i'm not sure what molecules would be small enough to go through, water yes but it's very small could anything else go through? then there's the problem of osmosis if i fill her water with lots of stuff at a higher concentration than in her tissues water will come out dehydrating her, if it's a lower concentration then they wont go in assuming they can fit. unless they have some form of active channel uptake of stuff which isn't impossible) then i don't really know how she could absorb it.
|
|
Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
|
Post by Zorst on Nov 30, 2014 10:11:24 GMT
Thanks Etana, I sure hope the syringe feeding helps her Md, other than that its kind of tough on you just keeping her comfortable n waiting to see how things go. Fingers crossed for you that all go's well.
Zorst
|
|
|
Post by cliath on Nov 30, 2014 10:54:40 GMT
Sorry to hear about your snail Zorst.
|
|
|
Post by muddydragon on Dec 2, 2014 11:27:40 GMT
well things are certainly getting worse. frankly i'll be amazed if she's still alive when i try to wake her up this evening.
*some of this description is disturbing but i think it's useful incase anyone experiences this in the future*
the day before yesterday she refused to be syringe fed so i let her be, yesterday she was still in her water dish partially extended. the first thing i noticed was the smell, the "dead snail smell" but not as strong as it could be and cloudy water. To my amazement she wasn't dead, but i was really unsure for quite a long time i spent ages wondering wether there were reflex movements or actual ones, (the thought zombie snail came to mind) eventually she moved enough fast enough and in an expected manner for me to belive she was alive (i should add by the time i had finished treating her i was 100% certain she was alive even though some of this description makes it sound as if she was not). a lot of white gunk came off of her like very thick slime (this seemd to be the main source of the smell) lots of baths in running water to get that off seemed to stop the smell along with a good soak in green tea. parts of her skin were hard (like a dead snail) but the softened up and moved again as normal after a while. her movements were odd and some were disurbing, she seemd almost to have given up sometimes hardly moving. I decided to syringe feed her again, this time a mixture of sweet potato and mashed fresh snail poo from another snail (thinking benifical bacteria). she took it quite readily but did regurgitate some of it (less then went in though). IF she's alive tonight i will only sringe feed her a tiny amount of bannana (hoping the sugary-ness will help) and amybe some green tea but no more. although she's only taken small amounts of syringed food and it is mostly there hasn't been a poo yet so i worry about her being "full". i aslo think this is the end of the road for her a recovery will basically be a miracle and continuing syringe feeding her would be unkind (there's one last go and if there's no improvement that's t). i'm going to keep up her baths every night though until she goes, they seem to help her somewhat and help get whatever causes the smell off (i'm hoping that's gone now though and she will smell OK tonight). I'm quite concerned that the smell may mean that parts of her are decomposing whilst still being alive... but i really don't know. It's disturbing and i have no idea why it is happening (her tank mates all seem fine so far thankfully). It's still a waiting game now.
my mum keeps saying we have some spare tanks at home so i can bring her back over christmas, i keep pointing out that if she's not better by then she'll be dead but she doesn't seem to grasp that. it's sweet really (especially considerng my mum HATES snails and they freak her out, she's coming to stay for a week soon and her one request was "make sure there's no snails in my room!").
|
|
|
Post by cliath on Dec 2, 2014 16:50:45 GMT
Im really sorry to hear that she's taken a turn for the worst. Feeding her the snail poo was a good idea. It's very nice of your mum to be so considerate. I really hope the best for you and Freyja.
|
|
Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
|
Post by Zorst on Dec 2, 2014 19:01:01 GMT
Ahy I'm real sorry to hear about Freyja, that was very interesting about the smelly slime though. I really wish you all the luck with her and please keep us all posted on her progress.
Zorst
|
|
|
Post by muddydragon on Dec 3, 2014 12:13:26 GMT
I'm afraid i decided to euthanise freyja last night.
*the following is VERY disturbing*
Yesterday she had foul smelling "slime" on her again and her movements were so much slower it took me ages to decide if she was truely alive (the day before she was like this then proved herself to be very much alive i had also seen her moving slightly throughout the day following that on the lead up to last night). I wasn't certain but decided not to try to make her more awake when i discovered what the foul smelling "slime" was... Basically the slime smelt like ddead snail beacuse it was parts of dead snail, it was her skin peeling off and lumps of her skin looked dead. i genuinely think parts of her had died and were decomposing whilst other parts were still alive. i couldn't see her go on like this to her almost certain eventual death so i euthanised her. it was utterly devastating but i couldn't keep trying to keep her alive like that it wasn't fair on her. i suspect that maybe some of her internal organs gve up first hence the retraction and not eating at the beginning, if i had know how it would have continued i would have left her like that to go. I have no idea what caused it. her three tank mates are fine so far (although after removing her i did a deep clean of the tank with some soil from other snail tanks). the only thing i can think of was that some "wild" woodlice got in recently, their lid is just a solid bit of acylic rather than polycarbonate like the other tanks so it curves over time due to the temp differences which provides bigger gaps that creatures like woodlice can fit through. i can only assume they brought something with them that freyja got but thankfully the other 3 avoided. it could be something genetic i suppose but the other 3 are her siblings and they're fine. basically i don't know i'm just praying no-one else gets it and have disinfected pretty much everything she possibly could have come in contact with.
|
|
|
Post by morningcoffee on Dec 3, 2014 12:23:41 GMT
So sorry to hear this Poor Freyja and poor you. It sounds awful and I completely relate to the frustration and worry of not knowing why it happened or what may have caused it. Fingers crossed that your other snailers will all be OK.
|
|
|
Post by moon on Dec 3, 2014 15:52:48 GMT
So sorry about Freyja. You obviously tried everything possible but unfortunately sometimes no matter how hard we try, it's not going to work.
Sadly, my aspersa Ben passed away too. I wasn't brave enough to euthanase him, just left him to go to sleep when he felt he'd finally had enough. I think he had weak genes (through in-breeding)as three of his family members were all very under sized, spent more time sleeping than eating and all died at about a year old for no apparent reason. Other unrelated tank mates have all been fine.
Really hope all your other snails will be ok.
RIP Freyja x
RIP Ben x
|
|
|
Post by etana on Dec 3, 2014 16:58:25 GMT
RIP Freyja, and Ben
|
|
|
Post by starcrazy19 on Dec 3, 2014 18:08:19 GMT
Thats really sad muddy, sorry she didn't make it. The illness does sound uttely bizarre, I can only think that in the wild a sick snail like this would be unlikely to have survived to progress to such a state so its probably a condition wild snails are unlikely to experience. The apparent decomposition may have been a concequence, as you say, of some irreparable breakdown earlier on and her keeping going so long with such good care. Fingers crossed for the others too!
|
|
|
Post by cliath on Dec 3, 2014 18:34:16 GMT
Sorry to hear she got so bad RIP Freyja and Ben
|
|