Very very bad news

[Selena]

The big ill fulica's (i had write about before on this forum) that stoped eating and being inactive (i thought the mites are the cause) began to show the same symptoms as the snail who died a few moths ago. Parts of the tail began to color white and the colored tissue feels rigid. They are not recovering at all and slowly get more and more ill (in-active, weak, not eating etc)

the illness began with the produce of much mucus (quite long time ago) and it ends up with the same symptoms as the snail who died. the other small snail with the white tail also died last week and all snails are from the same family and the reptile store (kept in unsuitable conditions)

I had seperate the two big ones just a few days ago (Etanas recommend) because i thought they were ill from the mites and never suspect it could something else. But now i'm afraid it is a virus (because of the slow development of the symptoms) a bactery is often more agressive and cause dead faster.

I took some pictures, maybe anybody recognise the symptoms? And: it is a virus (seems most likely) what the **** am i going to do now??? all snails shared the same container, so it is not possible to seperate a few who had contact with the big ones. I seperate the healthy looking snails from the reptilestore from the others as well, just to be sure. But because of the long therm manifestation of symptoms, i can;t ever now wich snail is infected and wich is not, i only now if its too late.

I

[etana]

I'm so sorry to hear this Selena. I was sincerely hoping that your big snails were just in need of some peace and rest with all that had been irritating them lately, in a tank that didn't support big nematode populations, where you could be sure what they eat and poop, etc.

If you possibly can, keep taking pictures and write down everything new you see, because we know so little about snail illness, and any documents about what happens are important. I know it's hard, but try to do it anyway.

If this affects all the snails from the same family & place, it could be a bad gene that makes the snails ill at a certain age, but I guess it could also well be something they caught in the previous, not so good place at the reptile store, if there are invertebrate illnesses that develop that slowly. How long ago was it when you got these snails, exactly?

Very in-bred snails get strange health problems and die young, but I have no clue if it includes this kind of illnesses.

Keep us posted. :/

[muddydragon]

IF it's a virus theres not alot you can do besides separate all snails and wait and see what happens. In future all snails would have to be quarantined and should not be introduced to snails that have survived the virus (as these may be carriers. It's always good practice to quarantine any new snails anyway and thoroughly wash hands inbetween handling snails/substrate/food from different tanks.

Obviously you can't be certain it's a virus it's very VERY rare we hear of a virus killing off snails. There are a lot of factors at work here since they had such poor conditions before + mites they are no doubt weakened and it could be possible what they have now is a combination of those problems or due to them already being weakened (i.e. they might be able to fight it off better if well). There are other things that could cause this.

Hard white patches are usually some form of scarring. Freyja before she died later in her illness had hard patches on her skin (she was already white naturually) but with hindsight i do wonder if this was due to her not moving and perhaps being too close to the heatmat or spending too long in the water and struggling to get out or perhaps the caffine in the green tea was too strong (too much caffine is dangerous for snails) and numerous frequent baths hurt her or just me keeping her alive longer than she would have done if i had left her to it (she was 3 years old and it's not uncommon for snails to die at that age). she didn't have excess mucus just deep retraction and trouble moving. However none of the snails who shared a tank with her have shown similar symptoms (thankfully!) but as soon as i noticed something wrong i did remove her and do a full clean out and wash down with green tea. i doubt it was any form of snail specific virus as i owned her parents and she never met any "new" snails. i also hadn't had any new snails from elsewhere for well over a year. I do however suspect that it may have had something to do with the woodlice that managed to get into the tank.

Things i would double check:

1. Heating? - is the heatmat on the side or underneath the tank. if underneath it could burn the snails causing hard white patches.
2. Wetness of substrate? - if the conditions are too wet i would expect skin damage over time
3. Substrate? - anything that could cause chemical burns? (e.g. ferilisers?)
4. Food washing? - do you wash all food thoroughly (even organic) if not then they could be suffering from eating pesticides on the food. other than offering clean food and hoping there's not much you can do in this case the damage is done.
5. Healthier snails? - are any of them with healthier snails that could be muching on the due to them being weaker?
6. mobility of snails? - if the snails are inactive and hardly moving make sure they're not too close to the heatmat incase they are incapeable of moving away - and therefore burning themselves
7. water quality? - what sort of water do you use for the snails? if tap water o you know the quality of the water in your area? could it have something added that has caused problems?

[Selena]

Hi Both,

Thanks a lot for your comments. I am so sad about it! Just 'bought a second quarantaine container and came home. I discovered the white border on one big snail and immediately recognised it from the last died one.

The mucus actually was not mucus perhaps, maybe it was poo. They have not much poo and if they do, it contains more 'slime' than food

Etana, i will report everything, its a good idea and its not difficult for me at all, Its better to analyse now, ótherwise i feel very bad. I realy love my snails so much.

"good' to read a virus is not very likely, and all the reptile store snails have problems now. There are 3 generations from that same store. gen 1 two old ones big ones: visible ill gen 2: one dead, all the others (3) have problems with deep retracting (but also suffered from the mites) and the slime-poo. They all have a sort of little holes in their mantel, maybe it has something to do with the illness? mites could also be the cause of the holes (bites) sometimes they acting weird (sleeping on strange spots, wake up on unusual times etc)

The third generation: 4 quite little snails: one had a missing tail and wite tissue (i posted about him before) and died last week (after deep retracting problems. 3 other small ones: began more and more to retract deep, twist to the breatinghole, grow stoped

So all the snails of the same store!

If the substrate isn't good, why the other snails didn't got ill? I realy don't understand what could cause this. Snails became ill one by one, since i keep them, but why all the snails from the same store?

Muddydragon: i bath, showered them a lot a few times a day! Especially the big fulicas. I use water from the tap. It contains a relative a lot calciumcarbonate, but quality is very good.

sometimes i use a filter to reduce the calcium. Sometimes i use warm water, what's too hot for them? And yes, they also spend a lot of time on the same part of their body (without moving) and they stay long bath (i thought its good for ill snails to gave them a warm bath?)

I wash all vegetables very well but a few times i didn.t because i thougt organic food is safe. I remember i put a hole lettuce (organic) in the container (without cleaning!!) and the big fulica;s (especially one of them) ate exessive amounts of that lettuce (a few days on a row) and that was the last thing he ate by himselve before he got ill.

But if he is damaged by the lettuce, why the effect was not directly after he ate? He started to get ill in October i guess.

I checked everything but i really don't know what else it could be.

[Selena]

Jan 19, 2015 15:14:04 GMT etana said:

If this affects all the snails from the same family & place, it could be a bad gene that makes the snails ill at a certain age, but I guess it could also well be something they caught in the previous, not so good place at the reptile store, if there are invertebrate illnesses that develop that slowly. How long ago was it when you got these snails, exactly? 

I bought them on the 25th of november 2014. on the 10th of december snail 1 died. on 13 th december the big fulica;s began to produce the thick slime and since 23 th of december, they began to be less active and i started to be concern. Important to note: they started to get less active at the same time i changed everything in their environment. Temperatures was suddenly  4 degrees lower than before and there was a cold air leek. In this period they ate much organic lettuce (i've had not washed before)and the mite population began to grow. The fulica's slept a lot, produce still the mucus/slimepoo and if they were awake, they went in the watertank and stay fully under water for very long time. since 24th of december one fulica stopped eating and a few days later the other big one as well. Then the thirst fulica suddenly began to eat and move again and seemed to recover. Other fulica went more ill. I started to feed them and in the beginning i managed to let them eat. I tried everyday to feed them and they would ate less everyday. They got more weak and had not the energy to be awake and use the radula. one of the fulica;s even wouldn't eat with me and he often touch al the food near him, without eating it. Today, they are so weak its not possible to feed them anymore. Their bodies are to weak and small for the shells and its hard for them to keep up. The white tissue appeared at one snail and the other constantly is up site down twisted in his shell and its almost impossible to came out.

[Selena]

update: both fulica's woke up this morning and were very weak and slow but they drink and tried to eat by them selves. I had feed them a little bit, they opened their mouths but had not the straingt to eat.The white border is bigger than yesterday.
I had no hope anymore and i wondered if it should be better not to force them to eat anymore, untill the most ill fulica suddenly produced a very thick,long, normal poo (??!!!) i couldn't believe my eyes, he havent got a poo for weeks and eat almost nothing.
Though, í have not much hope, but i will not give up.
Because of the white tissue (He constantly is not moving and sit on the same part of his bodie (and the heavy shell pressed on his too small body), Maybe it is like pressure sores,thats why it appears on in-active snails and its not a symptom of the illness, but a site effect of the symptom inactivity.
I put both fulica's on a big amount of soft and humid terrarium moss, to make the ground more soft. It smelled nice and natural and both snails liked it. I covered them with the moss as well, it will keep them warm and humid.
I made a new picture of the white border and will post it soon.

[Selena]

Not much activity on the forum, so its a bit odd to talk to myselve, but keep posting because i promissed and its important to share this info.

today the snail who have had a poo yesterday was sleeping in its shell, the white border developed and his skin looked dry and small. he didn't came out of his shell and i let it be.

the other snail looked less dry and small. He also began to color white on the same parts of his body. He tried to came out of his shell but he was stuck (because his bodie is much smaller then before, even when he came out of his shell, the mantel is still very deep retracted in the shell. I couldt help him to come out because he was to deep. finally he managed to came out and was hanging, completely limp out of his shell. His head looked swollen compared to the small, dry bodie. It was a bit freaky to see and sad, so sad he tried to drink and eat but he couldnt. i could only hope they will die soon. I replaced both snails to their last small tank. I put much moss and a bit water in it and said goodbye to my big friends. Both are sleeping in their shells and maybe one is allready dead. I just let them rest and will not touch them anymore. i'm so very sad i can not save them and give them a nice and healthy live. I did everything i could and tried to do the best for them. But i have made some stupid mistakes and maybe its my fault.
i can only hope they will die fast and peacefull. The generation 2 and 3 are seperated from the others. One little fulica died today as well. the gen 2 fulica's have symptoms. Not everyday and they still seems irritated by something. So maybe they are the next, i really hope not but i dont know wat to do anymore. Afraid to make mistakes again (too much bathing, too warm, too wet, too much green tea) maybe i just do nothing, maybe its better.

[mangoandlemon]

Im sure its not your fault. Don't beat yourself up over things you couldn't control.

[etana]

Awww Selena, you didn't do this to them. The snails had problems to begin with because they'd been kept badly in the reptile store, and it's unfortunate that trying to rescue them happened when you were only starting big snail keeping. Rescue snails can be tricky even for more experienced snail keepers. 

I really appreciate you documenting everything, even when your last text brought a little tear to my eye.

Maybe something got into them already when they were in the reptile store? Like Muddy suspects that Freyja got the similar illness from the uninvited woodlice. 

I really hope that these documented cases will help future snails. Also Selena I hope you get to experience the joy of keeping many fully healthy and happy big snails. You definitely have the will to do what is best for them. 

Also, the snails would have suffered so much more if they'd stayed longer in the reptile store. The ones who have left to snaily heaven at least got to be their last days in the hands of someone who truly cares. I'm sure snails can sense that.

Keep writing, if possible. *virtual hug*

[Cashell]

You've kept a close eye on them from the sounds of it, so at least you're doing what you can to keep them as comfortable as possible.

[Zorst]

Agreed this isn't your fault Selena and rescue snails as I know from experience can come with a multitude of problems be it from in breeding, bad conditions the wrong foods and many other things that we just can't place.

I know from loosing Seilide a short while back that it hurts like hell n you blame yourself n wonder what you could have done better or did you cause this snail to get sick. Seilide was perfectly healthy as a snail go's n then for no apparent reason stopped snailing n eating. I also had the slimy poop that was also noon existent with him. Partly i did find out the heat mat had malfunctioned so I got another and that sorted out the temp in the tank etc. I changed over to new bedding etc and also put in a snail bath next to the heat mat which all the snails loved.

He did rally n eat a bit again before he died and i really got my hopes up he was ok, but he died quietly one day after he'd been visiting with me where he was very interactive and then having spent some quality time with his little friend patting with eye stalks etc. He went to sleep n didn't wake up.

There was no mite infestation n no hard dried skin though his skin had got darker and he developed a thicker mucus over the last few days. He spent a lot of time in his bath so he wasn't to dry but he did loose an awful lot of weight.

Sometimes It just happens unfortunately.

Just know that you've done and are doing your best for all your snails, from the history you've told of them it really sounds like this is the results of what happened at the reptile shop.

Just keep them all as comfortable as possible.

Zorst

[Selena]

thank you all for support.
I'm not sure about the reptile store damage, because: they have told me: they kept the snails just for 1 week. but they also don't know exacly the circumstances they came from.
yesterday i went to the store again and they also don't know what went wrong, but they admid: its strange it is happening with all snails from their store and i will get new snails if they have(this is less important to me, but it means a bit recognition). It was a relief they listened to my story and gave recognition (instead of deny and shirking responsibility) it will not solve the problems and sadness for the ill snails, but i am glad they have listened

I have read many stories on this forum about sails who have one or more similar symptoms and most of them will die. It seems there are several reasons that cause the similar problems.
Maybe the symptoms are not the illness, but the result of something else. Like: mites, bac terial onbalance, bad food or a combination.

I have made a list of the symptoms the ill fulicas shows and there are many similarities with the ‘deeply retraction syndrom’ this site had wrote about. But a main difference is: my snails are not sleeping all the time retracted in their shells and very easy to wake up, even just before they die . They die out of their shells instead of extremely deaply retracted.

This is the list i have made, symptom manifestation from the beginning till they die. The developement take a month or longer. In my case i quess its a combination of miteproblems and something else
- In- active
- Retract totally in shell during their sleep and often you find him fallen on the ground, up site down (but they are not too deep retracting in the beginning)
- Less eating
- Thick white-isch mucus/slime poo
- Little holes in mantel, border from the mantel looks dry
- Restless sleap (many awakenings)
- Being awake for short periods on strange times
- Losing weight
- Too Deeply retracting
- Irritation at mantel area and breating hole (often scratch with radula)
- Refuse food, touch different kind of foods all the time without eating. Our trying to eat, but to weak.
- Just move for a few cm a day. Sometimes they climb a little
- Sit/rest a quarter turn in the direction of breating hole and also twisted retracted in shell
- Problems to came out of the shell / get stucked in shell because of the quarter turn (smaller snails seems to die in this stadium, because they stucked and failed to came out)
- Much sleeping/ not sleeping at all
- Don’t moving at all, problems with moving because losing weight and and heavy shell
- Still trying to eat and drink sometimes,
- Very weak and constantly fal a sleep when they are out of shell (sometimes they felt in watertank/food dish because they went a sleep wile they drinking. Very rarely you see the full eyestalks
- Limp body,
- White/dry-isch patches appear on the parts the snail rest on all the time
- Eyestalks are always retracted
- When awake, they try to drink an hanging limp out of the shell. They die in this position
- When a sleep: retracted (but not too deep anymore) in shell and die in shell

For the snails who just have the begin-symptoms i made a list and note everyday the developement of the symptoms. I just let them sleep as much as they need. I do completely differente things than i did with the almost dead big fulica’s and see if the illness will develope the same or not.
I bath the big fulica;s several times a day and wake them to check and feed. I changed and sterelized the substrate many times, i gave them a lot showers, did not sepperated them from the others (only the last week) . It didn;t work at all.
So now, im going to do completely else! From now on: don’t wake them, dont force them to eat, no showers, no green tea, no bathing, don;t check them several times a day. Just add food and water to the tank, controll the temperature and humidity, keep the environment clean and thats it. i will let them choose their own needs. Lets see if it works and if so, we know a little bit more for further. Than, this terrible situation could change into something usefull perhaps. I keep posting about the developement

[Selena]

today 1 big fulica died and take a little baby snail with him.the other big snail is still alive, but maybe his last hours before he also die
to make it more horrible: the snail was sleeping in his shell all the time, but especially came out to die. It looked horrible, his radula completely exposed and his body very dry and thin. I wish he died IN his shell (like he was the last days)
Generation 2 update: Yesterday the mid size fulica was active all the time and looking healthy. BUt this morning i found him deep in his shell, strubbling to came out because he sat in a quarter turn. After he managed to came out he looked very ill, much thick mucus and smelled like dead snail. I seperated him from the other gen 2 fulica's and he went to sleep deeply retracted.
The smallest snail and the biggest (named Mancha)and three gen 3 snails are in the other quarantaine. The smallest is ill all the time. Very inactive, not eating, deeply retracting, slime poo and mancha (my favourite snail) with the white spot have symptoms as well. Sometimes he is retracting deeply and produce thick mucus. He is not very active but still eating and had a poo this morning but comparing to the other ill snails: it could be completely different the next day. Ist very unpredictable all the time and when you think they'll recover: suddenly they get more ill. And when you think they going to die: they suddenly produce a thick and normal poo... and any way die the next day.
its like a very bad dream at this moment..

[snailed]

This is all so crazy! So sorry for your snails!

[Zorst]

So sorry to hear about your snails, I really do hope that Mancha recovers and gets better. I know its just horrible waiting as all this go's on.

Zorst

[Selena]

its crazy how it works. before i was sad and afraid to loose 1 snail and now this is all happening, i;m glad if i could safe at least 1 snail..
My snails just told me not to give up. Mancha and his younger brother both woke up when evening began and started to eat and climb and showed me there;s still hope for them. I'm certainly not sure about the illness. perhaps manifestation of the symptoms do not means definitely the snail is is going to die, its hard to think positive right now, but other snails are younger and the symptoms may be similar, but the frequences and level of manifestation is different. perhaps it is possible a snail do recovers from what ever it may be. I let them rest as much as they need, change nothing in their environment and keep them warm and humid. I give them a short shower once a day and do a mite check-up.
I really hope Mancha is going to make it at least and if more will survive i;m very happy.

[Selena]

the second big fulica died this evening.

r.i.p both fulica's

One of the fulica's of gen 2 will be the next i'm afraid. It looks like his mantel dissolves the edge of his mantel retract more and more in his shell and the border of the manteltissue is dry and have holes in it. He lost tissue around the breating hole as well. he is not eating very much, act weird and no poo. much irritation in mantel area, looks like he bring the damage to his mantel himselve by scraping and scratching with his radula. The nematodes are still on his mantel and i think, they'll cause the iriation. He retract as deep as could be, scary to see.

But an other horror scenario: the nematodes eat dead organism, right? what if they eat tissue from weak/ill organism as well? Like magots do? did this ever happened before?

Mancha and his young brother lost also tissue in the mantel area but mancha not very much and it stoped. and his brother lost more tissue but a part grew back as white scar-tissue (before there was a hole and now white tissue again. he is sleeping less deep retracted and mancha is not sleeping deeply retracted at all (before he did). Both had a poo today (like yesterday) mancha a normal poo and his brother a slimy poo (but befor he haven't got a poo at all) and eat normal (before they both did not on regulary base). But they still have the thick mucus after they retracted and are less active (but more active than before)

Its hard to have fait but maybe, perhaps, Mancha and his brother showing little signs of recovery, but i know from the .previous cases, tomorrow it could be completely different.

I could only wait and if they going to make it: i'm so very happy! 

[Zorst]

I'm still holding out n praying that both Mancha and his brother recover all of this.

Zorst

[mangoandlemon]

Same at my house

[Selena]

Thanks for your compassion, i'm sure it is helpfull, positive thinking!

The ill snail was out of his shell this morning, but his mantel very deeply retracted. It could still caused by nematodes (if you touch the mantel of a snail very softly, he will retract it deep to protect himselve) i will clean him again today just to be sure. But, im very concern about him.

Mancha and his brother were sleeping in their shells this morning. (it was a bit cold this night) and Mancha had a poo. I could see he had eaten several kinds of food i gave him. So, mancha had a poo for 3 days on a row right now and before he havent got a poo for several days)
His brother slept a bit deep retracted (but on the edge of the growth boundery)both snails woke up immediatly when i had touch them.

I have still hope for them.

[etana]

Sounds like they're fighting, they haven't given up. The eating many foods & pooping properly is very good. You & your snails are in my thoughts!

[Selena]

Thanks Etana,

Last days, i was looking for other things i could do (unless being worried about my snails and keep on and on thinking of what i did wrong our what it could be)
Not much changes, the most ill fulica suddenly was acting weird, he looked upset, his eyestalk moved weird and then he retracted very deep in his shell (except his tail, its hanging out of the shell) since the day before yesterday and didn't came out anymore. He is still alive but is not moving or reacting at all. This is completely different from the symptoms the other (died) snails showed. But there must be a connection i quess.

Mancha was not okay as well yesterday. He retracted more deep in his shell and produced thick lumps of muckus during his sleep. and wasn't very active. fortunately he do eat a little bit and had a poo.
I remember, the big (just died) fulica's have this symptoms since i have kept them.
they often made a sort of gurgling sound like they came out of the shell caused by the thick mucus out of the breathinghole.
Manchas brother, i named him: nicho. was much sleeping as well and did not eat or poo the last days. He is not sleeping deeply retracted.
but, both where quite active the day before yesterday and maybe yesterdaty, they had need some extra rest.
There are a few small fulica;s from gen 3 ('who'are also ill ) and they all seems to recover (except the ones who dies) it seems: they aren't ill at all actually. But the most important for me at this moment: Mancha and Nicho.

I will post again if there are important changes.

[Selena]

Big fulica number 4 died today, it wasn't a big surprise.

Unfortunately Nicho will be the next i'm afraid. He stoped eating and gets more in active. He have problems with moving, like the big ones had their last days.

Mancha stoped eating and begin to loose straight as well. Yesterday he had a poo with only slime and substrate.

Like i said before: i do everything different, i did with the other fulica's, and the illness seems to get worst faster. So force to eat and drink seems to help for a short moment of time, but it seems only a postpone of the irrevocable death. I think in this case: its better to let it be and let them die as fast as possible on their own way.

I haven't much hope for both anymore.

But if anyone have an idea what the **** it could be??? or recognise any symptoms??? Let me know please, i really want to find out why all fulicas from the same store gets ill and die one by one. If its not a virus or bacterial infection, and nothing seems to help them recovering, what in earth could it be??? It seems: the damage is allready done in the past, there is nothing i can do anymore. But what could cause such damage? And why does it take so long before the illness will manifestate?
It looks like there's something with the gut. The slime poo, refuse food till they die and after dead the radula is exposed. They also caused damage to their mantels their selves. This is a similarity as well.
If i did something wrong with food or what ever, at least a few of my other snails must be ill as well, but non of them do.

[Selena]

the unpredictable story continues...

Yesterday i thought i was going crazy. One of my Healthy snails named 'zanna' in the healthy tank was suddenly deeply retracted sleeping. I immediately thought: it is the same, letal illness!
I seperated her from the others and i was very in panic. Mancha en Nicho both got more ill like i wrote in the last post and i was very sad about them. I was also afraid all snails going to die, because the illness manifest at the healthy snails as well. I cried the hole day and evening. I checked Mancha and Nicho again and mancha had a poo and woke up. He didn;t eat for days and looked very weak. He was not active and moving anymore. Suddenly he started to eat by himselve very greedy with Big mouthfulls.After this he went back to sleep
Nicho woke up as well but looked very ill he tried to eat but he couldn't.
I started to clean the tank the new ill fulica had slept. They used that particular tank just for a few days and that fulica was the only snail who had spent time on that place on the substrate.
i picked up the substrate and discovered a huge amount of eggs! Zanna had lay a lot of eggs for a snail of her size (10cm). I didn;t count them but i think it are at least an hundred eggs.
She must be exhausted and very hungry. I fed her a mix of flued high nutriced food and found out, she had problems with her mouth. She was only able to suck the food, but she seemed very hungy. I checked her mouth and there is something unusual, the mouth is a little bit prolapsed. Not very much, but i could see a difference. After the male she looked better and went to sleep after she moved for a while.
So in her case the deep-retracting could it be caused by losing weight?
Today, Mancha woke up by himselve and he is looking and acting completely healthy!! he moved around without problems, eat cuttlefish, drink water. I was very surprised. I picked him up for a shower and gave him the mix of high nutriced food as wel. He began to eat a lot, like yesterday and after the male he even start to climb and just act like the good old mancha!!
I could't believe my eyes and almost don't believe it. Before i get happy: i just wait many days how this is going to develope, but since the mysterious illness: snails only got more ill and mancha is the first who showed recoverment on this level.
Zanna was less deep retracted and eat as well today. So new hope for both and pray for Nicho.

[mangoandlemon]

I'm so glad Macha is doing better! Maybe you could syringe soft food into Zannas mouth?