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Post by Rasplutin on Oct 31, 2023 13:20:38 GMT
It's been almost a week since your last update...
This "cimetrol super" might help other snails infested with mites, but was your finding still in time to help YOUR snail?
Edit: your post was not visible to me, only after I put my question...
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Oct 31, 2023 15:40:04 GMT
The delivery took longer than I was hoping. This morning I did the 2 back to back treatments 2 mins each. Like I mentioned in the other post, the snail retracted straight away and stayed retracted for 2 hours. This is different from when I used the insect spray with permethrin, the snail was unaffected, while with this spray she retracted. Since then she came out of the shell, I offered water, she drank lots, but now she’s slumped there looking weak and miserable and not moving. Maybe this spray is too strong? I don’t know. I was expecting to see no reaction like last time but the snail was a little bit more energetic before the treatment than after it...even tho she’s barely energetic at all but if I have to compare the before and after, she was better before. I’m not sure if she’s poisoned. There’s an extra ingredient inside, cypermethrin and pyriproxyfen, I don’t have a clue what the last one is. I’ll try and research to see if that’s dangerous to snails.
I’m at home this afternoon so I’m monitoring the snail. Earlier she was there all slumped, now she seems a bit more alert in the face, eyes out but not crawling. I put her on the lid of her enclosure and she’s just there not moving.
So to answer your question if I am on time for this snail...at least I now have the spray...she managed to survive til now. I don’t know if I’m able to save her. At least I have the opportunity of trying to save her. I’m planning another treatment tomorrow. Do you have any idea how long should I try this for and with which frequency?
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Post by Rasplutin on Oct 31, 2023 17:16:29 GMT
There is still so much we don't know. pyriproxyfen seems to be an "insect growth regulator". On the concentration, the can of my spray reads "0,1g / 100g". Does that mean it's 0,1% weight?
I assume you were still not able to view inside the breathing hole, so we can only wait... How would the snail behave if all mites were dead? How long will it take her to get them out - I know snails can actively breathe in and out, but they cannot cough.
I have no suggestion on when you should do the next treatment. Things would be easier to decide if you could see any impact on the mite population. In the best case there is no further treatment needed.
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Oct 31, 2023 20:39:38 GMT
In regards to the quantity...wouldn’t that mean 0.1g every 100g of weight of product? I link a picture of how the snail is just few minutes ago, slumped on top of cucumber, I put her there. Eyes not out but she’s trying to rasp at the cucumber. imgbox.com/LqngxNcqYes I agree with you, there’s too much we don’t know. And I’m grateful we’re trying this because one day we’ll find the solution hopefully. I can’t look in the breathing hole because the snail has lost more weight and the hole is way back, I can see it but can’t see inside anymore. I don’t know either how often to do this treatment but I think I have to repeat it because I can’t be sure if the snail breathed in the fumes in a sufficient quantity. My only concern is that before the treatment she was slightly better and now I’m not sure if she can “walk” at all. On another note....I noticed another strange thing in 2 other snails that are outside. They’re not showing symptoms of mites yet and I hope they won’t in future, however they don’t seem capable to pull themselves up and climb vertically, in fact they both stay always on the ground. And I have to decide where to put them for the winter...one of the 2 I put inside a little wooden house I bought so she won’t have to touch the wet ground and the other one at the moment is next to a pot but I want to move her as well. Do you have any idea what disease/problem/parasite or what causes this of them not able to climb vertically anymore as if they don’t have the body strength to pull their body and shell up. They’re both proportionally sized, I mean they have not lost any weight so I thought they should be able to pull themselves up like the others. I update you tomorrow after treatment.
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Post by Rasplutin on Oct 31, 2023 21:47:25 GMT
Yes, that would mean 0.1g of substance for 100g of product - if I understand it correctly...
The picture of your snail looks, well... OKish, but that's really hard to tell.
What about using a lower concentration of your spray, but for a (slightly) longer time? Do you still use the glass-bowl-method? You could simply expose it a little longer to the air, before covering your snail. The whole process is not well reproducable, but maybe you can find an amount of spray, where the snail does not retract... and will inhale for a longer time.
Being unable to see the breathing hole adds even more uncertainty to the procedure, sigh.
-- On your 2 not climbers: that's unusual and strange, because -as you may know from your own experience- most snails try to climb somewhere when they are in a new environment or feel stressed. You say they do not look weak but are unable to pull themselves up? The surface cannot be the problem? I cannot imagine a surface that snails really don't like... but to be shure, do you have something made from glass or plastic to let them climb on ?
Do these 2 snails live with other snails that behave normally?
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Nov 1, 2023 9:52:11 GMT
That’s a good suggestion to try to let a bit more air in the bowl before putting it on the snail. I try that. Also I noticed a difference in the sprays. The first one I used was bit powdery when it touched the bowl while this one is liquid like the one you described. And seems to stay inside the bowl better. The snail retracted after the treatment, straight after not during, during treatment it seemed she breathed normally I would say..but then I did put snail sideways because I wanted to make sure she didn’t close the breathing hole and it worked because she was trying to put herself upright and so was still breathing in the meantime.
The other 2 non climbers. 1 is mine, the other 1 I rescued. And mine is used to all surfaces because she lived there with me for a while. The one I rescued, she stayed in quarantine for few weeks cos she’ll was broken and lung skin was showing so I kept isolated, she slept, I didn’t notice any apparent sickness, the holes in the shell hardened beautifully so I decided to put her with the others.
But I really notice they can’t climb on wood or stone, tiles. Nothing. And I could see the effort. Because I could see the front part of the foot really stretched trying to go up and nothing would happen. My snail moved around a bit more, while my rescue she mainly stayed in the same area. Now they are both sleeping for the winter so I don’t want to wake them up. Although I noticed mine pooping this morning so she must be half awake and I might get her to inspect if she lost weight or has mites because the behaviour is bit suspicious....it has rained a lot and normally they would go for a walk but this one didn’t move at all. So I see if this one is half awake and may try to put on other surfaces. It’s a bit frustrating you see for me because my outdoor area is my roof area. I can go out of the window and walk there although it’s a narrow space and snails have plenty of places to hide so I don’t always manage to spot problems straight away. And at the moment I have a lot of babies so I have been trying to go out as little as possible to not step on babies, so I miss some things. My snails are amazing because they have a routine and they follow it, so sooner or later I do see the snails and I know who’s missing and who’s not. The other day when I found 4 dead, I went on purpose because I was looking for some snails I haven’t seen for a couple weeks and of course they were dead. I hate it so much.
I became a snail keeper by accident when nearly 4 years ago I looked outside my window and I see one snail on the roof! And I was like “wtf” where is this snail coming from??? 2nd floor roof apartment! So I was like...hey let’s feed it! So I did...and she was pregnant and 4 months later I found the babies! Like 30/40 beautiful babies. The mother disappeared after 2 months of the babies been born..I never knew what happened to her..maybe she just went where she came from...so since then I have my snails...and I’m trying to save them because I grew terribly attached to them, I love them so so much. They’re such amazing animals! But obviously I don’t need to tell you this because if you’re here you know this already.
Ok so mites snail is somewhat awake, I go do treatment shortly and reduce spray concentration. Let’s see.
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Post by Rasplutin on Nov 2, 2023 15:01:12 GMT
I actually cannot remember what happened to the mites INSIDE the breathing holes of my three snails, when I did the treatment... The snails recovered quickly but I did not see any dead mites inside, although I looked carefully. Maybe they were somewhere hidden around a corner inside the lung tissue?
Fortunately the snails had lots of mites walking around on their bodies, and those were instantly killed, visibly. Without this feedback it would have been more difficult to verify the results of the treatment.
I was afraid that mite eggs would hatch and I carefully inspected the breathing holes for several weeks, I could not see any young or older mites - nor could I see traces of the mites that have been inside the snails. Have they been absorbed? Since the mites never came back the problem seemed kind of solved. I was just happy they were gone.
Maybe your snail has dead mites in her lungs and that's why she's not very active at the moment?
Are there any updates on your non climbing snails? I have not heard of a parasite or an illness that would fit into the image.
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Nov 2, 2023 15:49:52 GMT
My non climbers...at the moment 1 is sleeping, I put her in a wooden house and she still there. The other one that was next to a pot has moved so at mo I don’t know where she is, I’ll have to see if I see her at dinner time in the next few days...I wanted to inspect but I didn’t on time and she moved. It’s very cold here now, we’re having a storm and snails are really sleepy so they’re not coming out every day... Mites snail...I did another treatment yesterday and did like you said, I exposed the bowl in the air before covering the snail and this time the snail didn’t look poisoned or affected, she didn’t go to sleep. So this suggests that when I did it the first times maybe the product concentration was too strong. Snail ate every evening, although she’s constipated. Yes. Because the poop that I saw in the last two days is poop of what she ate a week ago or more but then she was not eating for few days so everything must have slowed down I suppose. This is the snail today and I’m bit worried because she doesn’t look like she’s very well imgbox.com/Aeq657IaAlso...here it’s getting cold, I need to put heater on in the house and I waited because when I have snails inside I don’t want to put heater on but it’s really cold and I don’t know what to do . At the moment the snail doesn’t want to stay in the box so she been staying on top of the lid on the outside, inside box I still have the hypoaspis, and I don’t know what to do with them either, I guess they just stay in the box until they die. However, I need to maybe make another box for the snail...what do you suggest I do with the temperature? My snails are used to stay outdoors they really hate it in boxes indoors. Look at the pic, she’s slumped, not doing too well...still alive tho. Tonight I wake her and feed her as per usual and give water, I hope that by being hydrated she’ll be fine. I have the same questions about the dead mites...of course I can’t see if they’re dead, however she hasn’t lost any weight it seems in the last 3 days, and the mantle hasn’t detached any further which is a good sign. I’m hoping they’re dead inside.
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Nov 2, 2023 23:00:25 GMT
Tonight I woke the snail up but she’s very poorly. I put her on the food and she had a bit of carrot but she was eating with eyes closed, she couldn’t extend the eyes...she didn’t want any water..and now she’s standing there but not very active at all, despite eating a little bit. She hasn’t lost any more weight so far, but I really can’t understand if she’s getting better or worse. I haven’t seen any riccardoella so far. I managed to see the entrance of breathing hole and didn’t see mites, but I can’t tell if there is any deeper inside. Today I have not done any treatment with the spray. I wait to see how the snail is tomorrow. Now I just put her in a comfortable position for the night and I’m going to bed myself.
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Post by Rasplutin on Nov 3, 2023 13:51:15 GMT
We do not know what makes her feel uncomfortable, is it the spray"therapy", are mites still inside her, or is it the climate of the room she is in? You said your snails generally do not like being indoors - in my experience, garden snails (Cornu aspersum) can easily be kept indoors as long as it is not too warm and other factors like humidity are within the limits.
I keep my snails in my kitchen, which is the coolest room in winter because I don't do excessive cooking or baking. The container they're in is placed near a window to my balcony, the temperature in the container therefore rarely exceeds ~16°C in Winter. It doesn't go much lower than that, either.
How is the weather in your area at the moment? Could it be helpful to put her container outside for a while, just to see if that changes her mood? The change in temperature shouldn't be too harsh, of course. Just to see how she reacts to fresh air.
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Nov 4, 2023 10:04:05 GMT
Thank you for still replying to me, it means a lot.
I tell you what my gut feeling is about the situation now, obviously I may be terribly wrong because like you said we don’t know what is making her uncomfortable. I think that this time the mites have died, because I didn’t see any for many days...not even one by mistake walking. So they’re dead or the new batch is been born inside the lung and haven’t come out yet. Also, the snail has been staying outside the hypoaspis box however when I pick the snail up I occasionally see hypoaspis walking on the snail, so maybe they’re desperate for food and are doing their job finally? They went as far as looking for the snail outside the box, so I can only hope they did eat some riccardoella.
The other day I wasn’t sure if snail was getting better or worse because she kept eating and walking about a little bit. But since then she is eating every evening but not walking, and eating with eyes retracted so she’s doing worse I believe.
I think, gut feeling here, that she’s doing worse because of the dead or newly born still inside lung mites, and or because of the damage already done on her body. I’m scared to say this, but it seems like her body is shutting down. I pray I’m wrong on this.
I keep her in the kitchen too and I haven’t measured temperature yet, I’ll do it later when I find the tool to measure the room temperature accurately, but I think at mo it must be around 15 degrees. Initially this snail and one another of the 3 isolated snails, I kept in a box outside but too much water was going in through the holes and too much condensation. I took them in when I bought the hypoaspis as they would have disappeared outside and I wanted to make sure they did their job. I could try and put her outside again...I’m scared of temperature shock tho today as we are having this storm and wind is so cold and strong and it has rained a lot. Maybe I wait tomorrow to put her outside as storm is meant to be going away. Another thing I noticed is that she’s not sleeping properly, she sleeps with the body out just a little bit retracted but full body showing while normally I would expect to see the body inside the mantle for sleeping.
I definitely see every time that my snails hate being indoors. Maybe it’s a combination of temperature, humidity and routine. Because when I take them in, they behave normally for few days then they hibernate and could stay hibernated in my kitchen for months. And that’s not normal. They all do that. And I really can’t pinpoint the right humidity level and I’m sure that’s part of the problem. If it’s too dry they hibernate, if I spray or put a wet piece of paper in the box, it becomes too wet and I can see they don’t like it because they sleep outside the shell and their sleep and wake cycle gets disrupted. I experimented many times because I had to take snails in for many reasons and the same thing always happens. They hibernate if I leave kitchen as it is, and they get disrupted always half awake and sleeping out of the shell if I make the environment a bit more wet. I’ve always been curious how ppl manage to keep snails inside and have them behaving like they would behave when they’re outside. Maybe they just need to get used to it but like I said they hibernate and I end up having sleeping snails in the kitchen for months, the longest was 3 months but I woke them up in the end and put them outside because I didn’t think it was good for them. And it was funny because I normally let them explore the kitchen a bit (only one area of the counter) and they normally don’t like it in the container so they end up hibernating on my coffee container or on other boxes of things that I have on the counter. Luckily not many ppl come in my kitchen or they would see snails here and there and def think I’m very crazy.
So there’s one thing I can try. I can wait for the weather to improve slightly, it should in the next couple days, and then what I do sometimes is to isolate a snail outside I put it in one of those laundry bra net bags, the ones that you put delicate items inside to be then put in washing machine and put it outside. So the snail can walk around but can’t go hide where I can’t see it. I just was concerned also that if there are riccardoella outside she would get contaminated again and I would not understand if what I’m doing works or doesn’t.
Ppl don’t think much of snails, but I notice also when they’re happy or not. And on top of the temperature or humidity, I find that they feel they’re not in their home when I take them indoors and I can see them now being happy. It’s hard to explain but I can see when they’re sociable and when they’re scared and when they don’t like something. This is to explain to you what I meant when saying that my snails don’t like it indoors...so far I never fully succeeded at keeping them indoors for a lengthy time. I’m lucky I have the roof area. THey are really happy there.
I’m not sure if to do another spray treatment or not . I need to look again at riccardoella life cycle because if they’re not dead then maybe the new ones are growing.
This is all very frustrating. I wish it was easier to heal snails.
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Nov 5, 2023 10:07:30 GMT
Last night the snail died.
I tried to wake her up as usual for dinner and put her on cucumber but she didn’t eat, she slumped on the cucumber. Her face was all “scrunched” into itself which I refer to as the death face. I left her on the cucumber and went to bed. This morning I found her dead. Strange thing tho. In the last week or so I haven’t noticed any extra weight loss, leading me to think the mites could be dead. However yesterday afternoon the snail moved and hang upside down on a little cardboard box I provided, so I saw the body and it looked same size as it did in the last week or 2. This morning after dying, the body was all of a sudden much smaller and I noticed a lot of mucus like our saliva in between the mantle and the shell. I never saw this before. I rested the snail on a surface and since, the mucus has dripped down. The snail is extended and sick to say, relaxed, the scrunched face is not there no more..she’s not in pain no more. Something I can’t come to terms with is the dilemma of not having allowed them to be free in their home outside where they felt safe for the last period of their lives, they never went home again. Partly I wanted to try and heal them and keep a close eye and partly I didn’t want the mites to spread to others. But I feel sad they spent the last days of their lives in a box, sick and sad and somewhat scared I presume even tho they do get comfortable in me hand feeding them daily and don’t seem particularly scared, but the different environment I’m sure feels scary. I don’t know how to approach this. Indoors or outdoors? Big dilemma.
Yesterday morning while cleaning outside I saw a fallen snail that I was keeping an eye on for a couple weeks..I took her in yesterday and straight away sprayed her. Now she’s in the box in the kitchen. No mites visible but all the other symptoms I noticed up until now were visible. These are...wandering around during the daytime while all other snails went to sleep as they should. Mantle not aligned with shell but a bit retracted. Mantle by the breathing hole coming detached from shell, only by the side of breathing hole. Snail often rasping at herself inside shell and particularly at the breathing hole. Snails not able to stay attached to vertical surfaces because the mantle is not aligned to shell and therefore falling on the ground, when it happens too often to the same snail I start questioning and take a closer look.
So these have been the symptoms I noticed in all the snails I later discovered to have mites before I physically saw the mites.
Now I have this one in, I sprayed her. I have to decide if to do it all again for this one or put her outside again.
I wanted to ask you...when you first did your successful treatment with the spray, how long after you discovered the mites have you treated them? Because I still think the spray works..but maybe when the snails get first affected by mites the mites are outside the snail and treatment is more effective. And maybe if the snails are sicker for a longer time, the mites have nested inside the tissue, caused bigger damage, are stronger than hypoaspis and can’t be reached by the spray.
This would be my thinking at the moment.
I just know that I can’t cope with more snails dying. I thought that the last one managed to stay alive for so long that she would make it.
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Post by Rasplutin on Nov 5, 2023 15:22:45 GMT
This is so sad. I am still wondering why you weren't able to see any mites on the snail's body, that does not fit into the picture. Even if a snail that is deeply retracted, the mites would occasionally come out of the breathing hole. One possible theory for an explanation is: mites are not the only parasites that live on your snails! In a german forum I found this post of a snail keeper who had Cornu aspersum with retracted mantles on the side of the breathing hole. The nematodes were big enough to see with the naked eye, unfortunately even a pet laboratory didn't diagnose them at first. He used "panacur pet" paste to get rid of them. Nematodes found on Cornu aspersum and on Helix lucorum: www.schnecken-forum.de/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=32354
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Nov 9, 2023 6:53:03 GMT
imgbox.com/owmGBJeQ this is another snail that I have outside and if you can see the mantle is detached by the breathing hole, and also retracted as I was saying. In some snails it detaches fairly early. In others, it retracts by breathing hole but it stays attached for a long while then it starts detaching. This snail is outside, I took pic the other day but idk where she is at mo. I think you must be right. Then I have riccardoella and I must have something else. It gets confusing because I did see the riccardoella too, just not on a regular basis. In fact when we first got in contact, you mentioned riccardoella and at first I said I didn’t think that was the case because I never saw any..then I started seeing them but on an off. Yesterday I also found this imgbox.com/ftNoq48t This is horrendous. Another snail that lost the shell, it came off completely clean. This is the 4th time I see this. I didn’t see anything in the shell. And the poor snail dropped the shell and fell upside down inside the pot, the soil was wet, so the body where the shell was, is stuck in the wet soil and the snail is upside down and doesn’t have the strength to pull herself out. I have been looking at it for 24 hours now without touching it. I don’t know what to do. I could take it out but she’s going to suffocate. She’s going to die. I can’t kill her myself. A lot of people would say that it’s the right thing to do...I can’t do it...I can’t do it... I think you’re right. I must have 2 different problems...riccardoella and maybe these nematodes...although I didn’t visibly see any. The closest thing I saw in the past is...I found something that looked like the exoskeleton of a little animal , dark brown, about the size of rice, and empty inside like that was either the egg of something or the dead outer body of something...same consistency of wood lice outer body but shaped and sized like a grain of rice, not alive. And I found those inside some empty snail shells I had outside, but they went inside the shell long after the shell was left there and when I first found those shells the two were empty. I must have a lot of different organisms on the roof. Last year I started feeding pigeons and I’m sure they brought something too. I have woodlices, I have also springtails I found recently...I have spiders, jumping spiders, fruit flies they came in the summer, caterpillars (idk where they come from)...earthworms...it’s a bit of a zoo outside my window to be honest, because I have the snails and put food so everyone else just joins in. Thank you for linking the forum. I will translate it and have a good read. Do you reckon is there anything I can do on this outside area...in regards to nematodes & co.? Gosh I’m a bit overwhelmed....all this is breaking my heart
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an
Achatina achatina
Posts: 54
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Post by an on Nov 9, 2023 7:16:32 GMT
I just looked outside the window and the snail without shell is desperately trying to pull herself out of the soil. But she can’t grip and I don’t know how she managed to get stuck like that upside down without the shell. There must have been a hole in the soil and she fell in it upside down and sank. I don’t know what to do. It must be horrible for her, feeling her skin and organs exposed and stuck in the soil. I’m an empathy I can feel the pain...i don’t know what to do...
Next summer or spring I will have to dismantle the outside area and properly clean everything or I don’t think this will ever go away. I was meant to do it this summer but there’s snails everywhere. I was scared to crush them by mistake but I have no choice I must clear the area and try to save whoever has survived.
Now I have babies in the window rubber seal. Few days ago I crushed 2 by mistake, 1 survived so far. I’m very careful when I open and close window but babies like to climb and hide in the window seal.
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Post by Rasplutin on Nov 10, 2023 21:05:06 GMT
To me, shell loss is the most gruesome thing that can happen to a snail. And there seems to be nothing we can do about it!
There are occasional reports of snails slipping out of their shells, but it seems that to no other snail it happens as often as it does to Cornu aspersum. I do not keep exotic snails but have kept Helix pomatia for many years (decades) and they have never shown a prolapse, except for once, where a snail's growth area (the dark part of the mantle) slipped out for about a centimeter or so. The snail didn't seem to care and after a few days that part hardened and became a part of her shell, having the same structure, only a bit darker in color.
On my Cornu aspersum I had to witness four shell losses - and heard of many more from other snail keepers. I have no idea why that happenes especially to Cornu aspersum in such great numbers. It almost seems like a flaw in design, it's at least something where evolution needs to do more work.
I have read reports of a nematode (called "Angiostoma aspersae") that could be responsible for shell loss. I really do not know what to think of that and I am happy that "only" four of my Cornus slipped out of their shells and that was some years ago. If it really was a parasite, then my other snails must have been infected, too. Am I wrong? I am clueless. I could not see a parasite, but maybe that's just ONE possible reason for mantle tear or shell loss and all other reasons remain unclear and probably do not involve parasites. I almost wish for a parasite because then there might be a chance to do something against it.
In my previous post I have linked to a post in a german speaking forum, i hope you are able to translate it, it basically shows images of retracted Cornu and Helix lucorum. The reason for their retraction (and the death of some snails) remained unclear for about a year. The snail keeper sent probes to a veterinarian lab where they did NOT find any nematodes. But since he could see small worms in the mantle cavity he ordered "panacur-pet paste" and after treatment the snails showed almost immediately improvement.
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