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Post by fabrizio on Nov 28, 2007 21:44:14 GMT
Yes, I too believe it's he. I found his interesting site an year ago, then more recentely I saw he's joined to Petsnails, so thought to contact him... yet I gave up for the moment; but now, if all of you are willing to start (again) this project, it could be for us the right time to contact other experienced people like him, apart from following the above stated points; I agree even with the clear outlines pointed out by Apple, and wait for any more proposal! fabrizio
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Leah
Archachatina puylaerti
Do you want me to sit in the corner and rust, or just fall apart where I'm standing?
Posts: 1,261
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Post by Leah on Nov 30, 2007 19:41:00 GMT
ok I'm just beating my head against a brick wall here....
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Post by Vida on Nov 30, 2007 20:32:47 GMT
Leah, maybe we are just not understanding each other properly.
I believe you are telling us that it is all done already and we just have to set it in motion again. I have read where you pointed us to, but there is just too much posted and it is not at all clear and concise. Arno suggests we start from scratch. You think we don't need to. Is this what you are saying?
You are not beating your head against a brick wall. I do understand what you are saying. But as there doesn't seem to be a list of rules, regulations, ideas etc... posted in a concise and clear fashion, I thought it easier to start all over again.
Fabrizio suggests contacting a professor. Apple suggests we each say what kind of snails we have and what we know. I suggest we write down what we want to achieve, so we know how to go about getting this in motion.
I really appreciate all ideas and help. I do not know where to begin. But I do believe, that once we know WHAT we want, we will know HOW to do it.
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apple
Archachatina degneri
Posts: 1,078
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Post by apple on Nov 30, 2007 20:41:50 GMT
I didn´t only suggested that... Here is my complete suggestion: «Maybe we first should know which species each one has, what each one has been doing on snails, which are the aims of this society and of each one.Contacting professional ones on the area is a good aim as well. » ;D
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Arno
Archachatina puylaerti
Posts: 1,493
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Post by Arno on Nov 30, 2007 23:07:22 GMT
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Post by Vida on Dec 1, 2007 15:44:57 GMT
Good idea Arno.
Ok, from Paul:
* To compile a comprehensive encyclopedia of snail knowledge, both scientific and from a pet point of view. * To compile a comprehensive collection of snail pictures. * To attempt to solve, document, revise and construct reliable identification methods and information, both written, photographic and computer-aided. * To be a comprehensive directory of websites, breeders & shops. * To actively increase awareness about snails and their care and to encourage responsible ownership. * To research and to encourage research from others. * To combine all our efforts towards a common goal. * To find ways to involve people from all over the world. * To educate and to inform. * To be an umbrella to various snail sites/organisations that wish to particpate. * To be a hub of communication for snail lovers with a whole host of facilities at their disposal. * To eventually support malacology & conchology organisations regarding Achatinidae in particular. * To give us influence and the ability to do that which one person alone could not do, such as getting trade accounts and access to certain information and/or facilities. * To share our information with everyone and anyone.
From Leah:
to stop snails being badly cared for in pet shops.
From Apple:
Maybe we first should know which species each one has, what each one has been doing on snails, which are the aims of this society and of each one.Contacting professional ones on the area is a good aim as well.
From Fabrizio:
I believe, that such an association should even become "institutionally" visible, as we could help research institutes and so on, to get live specimes we grow and breed; and we could get a recognizment, as a Gastropods biodiversity preserving organization, if we focus on the snails' captive reproduction, and point it out.
Anyone else want to add something?
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apple
Archachatina degneri
Posts: 1,078
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Post by apple on Dec 1, 2007 20:58:02 GMT
very good!
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Post by ness on Dec 1, 2007 22:44:43 GMT
What a fantastic idea.
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 2, 2007 2:25:23 GMT
Hi all, I hope new ideas will be keeping coming from all of us, and would really regret, if some lesser misunderstandings among us could hamper the common pursuing of such a valuable project! I read all of the issues Paul pointed out, and feel agreement with all of them; sadly it seems that Paul does make rarer appareance, I understand he made a wonderful job, hopefully he will come on again, and back our reviving attempt of his old proposal...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (I see now, Vida has summed up the main points, so many of the text below may have became redundant, however please forgive and make allowance for that, and take that as a sort of further clarification!
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"As to me, I would add that a crucial point in our program, at its very basis, is the real difficulty in substantially increasing the number and the "family range" of the reared and bred snail species among us, as a "supply", as there is for tropical aquarium fish species, or even Spiders, Reptiles Phasmids and so on, still does not exist; while a lot of "dead shell" trade does exist, at the contrary! If we don't remove such a standstill, we couldn't go too further, with more observations, experiences and the like.
So, we should try to make some pressure on wild-shell-collectors, or other concerned peoples, but in order to do so effectively, we should gain some "weight" and reputation.
By openly asserting, -and hopefully putting in practice, of course- that we are primarly concerned with "EX-SITU REPRODUCTION-CONSERVATION PURPOSE", we could propose our Association as a reliable referent even for Research Institutes, laboratories involved with genetic analysis of Gastropods, to all which we could eventually supply some "captive born" specimens, from a wide array of species; we could make available as well, some "surplus CBs" to Zoological Parks, expecially the ones already involved with conservation projects, and we could get back some more species for our members to rear and breed
Upon such a premise, obviously, we will have for ourselves the chance for direct observations on a wider range of species, trying different foods, different environments, temperatures and egg-hatching conditions, keeping note and make some reasoning about all of it, that would sum up to the global knowledge in the field.
As to my very humble experience, I can say, for example, that when I asked some professional malacologists about Pomatias elegans captive rearing, how do they mate, what kind of eggs they do lay, if they're ovoviviparous etc, none could give me a clear answer about... and even searching the whole Web for informations, was equally useless. The fact is, that any direct observations, as those allowed chiefly by captive rearing (and watchful eyes!), are almost lacking in the field, professionals can tell apart the slightiest difference in shell type, know all about classifications, but I realize there is quite a wanting of knowledge, about Gastropods as "fully" living beings. So, although still being "amatorials", we could propose ourself as determined and willfull to co-operate with "academical" Malacology, we could fill some small yet nasty "gaps" within, and our role could be enhanced from that, if we are able to keep the point!
Finally, I would add another point, I believe truly important: we should be watchful on "aberrations" in our snails, even the "commonest" species, because they could be a starting point for further breeding and selecting any "strange" feature, eventually resulting in a new "breed" (as it has been made for dogs, or other pets, after all); not only we could increase the "amusing side" of our passion, by getting and endeavouring to get a "new" snail, but these could be of genetic interest too, as useful to explore the potential range of variation within a single species, clearing out if a certain "trait" is driven by the same paleo-genes in two apparently un-related species, and so on...
I hope we could debate about these further, although humble and rather abstract suggestions, and hope that someone among us will be able to put something in practice, what I'm currently unable to do! fabrizio
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Post by ness on Dec 2, 2007 12:32:23 GMT
This is very exciting Fabrizio, and Vida, and I agree with your points. (I'm AlienSnail from SuperSnails by-the-way - hiya ) The genetic side also interests me as snails colouration genetics and albinoism do not seem to follow the same rule as mammals. But yes I agree, the greater knowledge, conservation and wider availability of snails would be wonderful. It is very interesting that the expert did not know much about the Pomatias, it often is, as pointed out, keepers of these pets who share their knowledge and observations, making discoveries previously unknown to the scientific world. This is also where this particular website has so many strengths, as it's main aim seems to be in research and knowledge.
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 2, 2007 18:02:55 GMT
I agree with you Ness, many amatorials often had (and have) the chance to fill in knowledge's gaps! I quote all, about albinism, genetics, very exciting fields we could experience within...
And I would suggest you, to advertise all that on SuperSnails (I joined to it just a week ago, as soon as I knew by Kevin!), so even more people could join us or give other suggestions! fabrizio
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Post by Vida on Dec 2, 2007 20:05:16 GMT
So for Fabrizio's idea, we should all have a set table, I think, so that all our information, even if on different species, are the same. Does anyone want to do the table and post it here, so we can all print it out?
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Post by ness on Dec 2, 2007 20:54:54 GMT
I'll post an advert over on SuperSnails and a link to this section here. Thank you Fabrizio.
Vida, I could have a go at the table - I need to have a good think about what categories to put on it. I don't know how to put a table up on a forum though?
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Post by Vida on Dec 2, 2007 21:12:02 GMT
Just like a picture. Upload it to your photobucket/or whatever site you use account and then here. Thanks.
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apple
Archachatina degneri
Posts: 1,078
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Post by apple on Dec 2, 2007 21:23:41 GMT
Nice!
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Post by ness on Dec 2, 2007 22:09:29 GMT
Can I post the following, by Vida, up onto SuperSnails to advertise please? ;D
* To compile a comprehensive encyclopedia of snail knowledge, both scientific and from a pet point of view. * To compile a comprehensive collection of snail pictures. * To attempt to solve, document, revise and construct reliable identification methods and information, both written, photographic and computer-aided. * To be a comprehensive directory of websites, breeders & shops. * To actively increase awareness about snails and their care and to encourage responsible ownership. * To research and to encourage research from others. * To combine all our efforts towards a common goal. * To find ways to involve people from all over the world. * To educate and to inform. * To be an umbrella to various snail sites/organisations that wish to particpate. * To be a hub of communication for snail lovers with a whole host of facilities at their disposal. * To eventually support malacology & conchology organisations regarding Achatinidae in particular. * To give us influence and the ability to do that which one person alone could not do, such as getting trade accounts and access to certain information and/or facilities. * To share our information with everyone and anyone.
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Post by ness on Dec 2, 2007 22:10:28 GMT
Just like a picture. Upload it to your photobucket/or whatever site you use account and then here. Thanks. Thanks Vida.
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Post by manxminx on Dec 3, 2007 1:08:58 GMT
Excellent! Regarding this, I have a suggestion to make and have sent a pm to the main contributors of this thread: Arno, fabrizio, Vida, ness, apple. Ali.
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 3, 2007 1:32:43 GMT
Well done Ness, and among other points to be added, I would return to the initial proposal by Vida, of some kind of "snail competitions"; I still don't know well, how to conceive and organize it, but it could be really useful, either in raising public awareness and curiosity about snail's world, and as well as an opportunity to move people around in search of any "exceptional" snails, even well within the more "common" species: I'm just beginning to realize how much variability does exist within a single widespreaded species as Helix aspersa, I saw some really exceptional specimens of that, just on the websites of (european) food-snail farmers; and try to think to some giant specimens, that could be in turn employed to select a further "super-giant" breed (or a super-dwarf one as well!), some Achatina - sized Helix breed, or selecting a strain of sinistrorse snails (this tract seems being heritable too), and all of these "odd" specimens could easily come out, as the result of some well-planned "competition", as Vida did suggest....
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picklette
Achatina achatina
I want me gold!!!!
Posts: 61
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Post by picklette on Dec 3, 2007 9:12:43 GMT
I would also be extremely interested in the breeding/distribution side of things, perhaps if our society could look to the methods employed by the Phasmid Study Group we might find that useful for inspiration?
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Post by Vida on Dec 3, 2007 12:17:44 GMT
Picklette, could you explain their methods please?
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 3, 2007 14:04:47 GMT
Picklette, you are just prospecting the very best developement, of such an organization! As a fact, when I debated with Ed some months ago, we would take the Phasmid Study Group as a "model", Ed was endeavouring in moving around a similar "Roaches Studty Group", and we thought that the same outlines would work even in a perspective "Gastropod Study Group", as he attemptly named it (Intl Snail Association would be good as well, of course!), and we were aiming to issue a species list, (that with snails would enclose veriety/abherrations too), and making possible eggs/hatchlings exchanges within members, just it already happen in the PSG. Now I let to Picklette, to explain details from here onwards, however I'm sure, it would be the best outcome for us!
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Post by manxminx on Dec 3, 2007 15:53:18 GMT
To be truly 'International' I think we need to get the Germans interested in helping to get the association off the ground.
Cleo, what do you think? Can you help us out here?
Ali.
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Post by ness on Dec 3, 2007 16:40:25 GMT
I have some good ideas for a few tables inmy head, where they will have to stay for a few days due to comitments, but that's interesting that another group has set up a similar thing. I'm very intrigued about checking it out, which I will do so in a couple of days (sorry to put it on hold). ;D Nice one Picklette x
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Arno
Archachatina puylaerti
Posts: 1,493
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Post by Arno on Dec 3, 2007 18:46:35 GMT
Well done Ness, and among other points to be added, I would return to the initial proposal by Vida, of some kind of "snail competitions"; I still don't know well, how to conceive and organize it, but it could be really useful, either in raising public awareness and curiosity about snail's world, and as well as an opportunity to move people around in search of any "exceptional" snails, even well within the more "common" species: I'm just beginning to realize how much variability does exist within a single widespreaded species as Helix aspersa, I saw some really exceptional specimens of that, just on the websites of (european) food-snail farmers; and try to think to some giant specimens, that could be in turn employed to select a further "super-giant" breed (or a super-dwarf one as well!), some Achatina - sized Helix breed, or selecting a strain of sinistrorse snails (this tract seems being heritable too), and all of these "odd" specimens could easily come out, as the result of some well-planned "competition", as Vida did suggest.... To be honest I don't know if I would be interested in breeding Achatina-sized Helix.These really large Helix-breeds seem to me more interesting to snail-farmers who breed them for food. Personally I'm not into some of these fancy breeds you see sometimes in other pets.
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