apple
Archachatina degneri
Posts: 1,078
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Post by apple on Jun 29, 2010 20:02:26 GMT
No problem
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Jul 6, 2010 23:06:28 GMT
Eobania. He's an Eobania. I'm 95% sure he is. This is good. While Eobania are not native they have been introduced and populations established.
I can release the babies! Unless anyone wants one...
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Post by wolf on Jul 7, 2010 14:20:22 GMT
Hi, congratulations! Kind of unusual specimen. I´ve got round about 12 to 14 shells of Eobania vermiculata here, from several countries (Italy, Greece, Turkey and so on). Two or three of these are rather bright, with weak, sometimes even fading streaks, but none of them has a spire so high........ . Interesting. Kind regards: wolf
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Jul 7, 2010 21:16:44 GMT
After looking at pics of Eobanias and aspersas I'm more confused than ever. The spire does seem more like an aspersa, but the shell markings seem too unvaried and more like Eobania. This blog post might help, because it shows pics of Eobanias and aspersas side by side. edited to fix link
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Jul 7, 2010 22:41:09 GMT
Coyote; that's one of the sites that convinced me he's an Eobania. Though you're right, he does have a very... protruding spire. He's a lot smaller than most aspersa's I've seen, and certainly a lot smaller than the aspersa he bred with. I spent a lot of time here as well; www.conchology.be/?t=66&family=HELICIDAE&species=eobania&locality=Of course, a lot of the shells could be misidentified on there, I guess.
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Jul 8, 2010 22:22:06 GMT
That link shows how much variation in shell color and patterns can be found in Eonbanias. Some are indeed remarkably similar to aspersa coloration. But I would have to concur that your snail is not an aspersa, especially since he's a lot smaller than one. I've bookmarked that shell encyclopedia; thanks for the link.
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Post by fabrizio on Jul 14, 2010 14:24:19 GMT
Hello, I trust it's a Eobania vermiculata, almost 99%... It's a really variable species (perhaps to be "separated" in different ones?) and differences are really astounding... I undertook a survey of local "morphotypes" (I'm on the northern coast of Lazio, Thyrrenian sea, Central italy), and summarized some commoner istances of their polymorphism on here. mondogasteropodi.forumfree.it/?t=27981139-Moreover please look at these ones, I bought in a supermarket as "gastronomy snails" (I bought them on different purpose, of course ) - I was said, Northern African "races" of Eobania vermiculata are like these,,, and still, totally unseemingly the ones living right here, I do know quite well! mondogasteropodi.forumfree.it/?t=35122823You can appreciate, how variable they can be. Either unusal colour (I call this hue "concolor", as Puma is named), and unusually conical shape of your snail, fall within the above said wide range of variability. (I'm trying to select and mate various pairs of them, in order 1) to understand heritability of traits, and 2) trying to emphasize the "deviations" in order to get "extreme" shapes) Their morphometric range seems much wider than Otala's one, expecially as it concerns "shell's height"; I'm measuring that deviation, with an index H/D (height(basal diameter), useful to study how it will present itself in the following generations -provided I'll be able to get them. At the same time, I'll have to sort out a statistic distribution on the wild population, in order to "quantify" deviation's degree of each specimen. Your specimens is rather "deviant", I must say (and really beautiful!), hence the uncertainity of attempts of identification. -If you have got babies, I would suggest you to back-breed them or cross some of them together, as that could either mantain, or even enhance the unusual traits of this snail of yours!
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Jul 14, 2010 19:42:41 GMT
Fabrizio, your breeding experiment sounds quite interesting. I hope you keep us informed of your findings, preferably with lots of pics.
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Post by fabrizio on Jul 14, 2010 20:00:07 GMT
Of course I will do, Coyote And if you believe it's interesting, I could begin placing pictures of the selected "pairs" (Actually I'm still puzzled about some "pairing", trying to sort together the more "right" candidates... I hope to wake up -and let to mate- them at the end of Summer, when first rains begin to fall again!
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Jul 14, 2010 22:50:30 GMT
Fabrizio, thanks for the great post and links (working my way through with a translation tool XD )
Amazing, how variable they are. At a glance anyone would assume they were different species.
The babies I have are cross-breeds; the other parent is an aspersa. Some of the babies are getting very big now, and I've noticed that maybe a third only have one eye stalk o.O I'm assuming this is due to the cross-breeding, though it could have something to do with the Eobania's growing up in a pesticide laden field and then spending a week in refrigeration. Poor guy. He's a little survivor.
I'd be happy to do some breeding, if I could find a few others and be sure to find homes for the offspring.
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Post by fabrizio on Jul 15, 2010 14:33:10 GMT
I'm glad you found interest in my posts and they came out helpful, Aerliss (I've planned to translate at least some of my posts, provided they can be really of some interest for foreign snail-lovers- sorry that you had to bother with translation ) ...But now you're saying something truly unbelievable ...I never heard before, of a Eobania X Cantareus cross-breeding!! I would suggest it's more likely, she was already mated, when you got her... or did you actually see them mating? How much time delay among various phases (arrive/joining with aspersus/egg laying)? We can't rule out anything from the beginning, of course... so I wonder how these hatchlings are (and will become later)!! Both species of course belong to the same Family, Helicidae, although to distinct Genera (this being chiefly an "anthropocentric" decision, rather than "Biological Reality".. both were known as Helix, H. vermiculata and H. aspersa, not too much time ago) The fact, -odd enough in itself!- they have got a single eye-stalk (guess right?) could well be the result of some "odd pairing" of respective genes, I guess... -I have still to check their chromosome number, I don't remember right now. It's extremely interesting anyhow... And please be assured, at least in captive environment they will be not absolutely hampered in their life, by their "menomation" Please observe any possible details, even as to concerns their behaviour (there are even "totally blind" snails, as the tiny species Cecilioides acuta, I found one of them in my sowing bed last year) It would be interesting to see, whether further inbreeding between two of these "odd hatchlings", will produce offspring with the same trait... It would mean that it's heritable; or that it became such, at least. Otherwise, it could have been due to a "simple" disruptance in embryo's development; by the effect of the pesticides on Ovotestis or by some effect of freezing on gametes' maturation, perhaps, as you properly suggested. I'm eager to know more, and to see how the hatchlings are and how will become later!
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Jul 15, 2010 20:28:52 GMT
I would suggest it's more likely, she was already mated, when you got her... or did you actually see them mating? I agree with this. Even if actual mating was witnessed, it is more likely that she was already "with child" and the resultant eggs are a product of a previous mating with another of her own species. When I first got my WC Otala (Paola), about a month later I introduced a Theba pisana in the tank, assuming they would not breed. A couple of weeks later I witnessed them in the act of mating, and then Paola laid eggs. Ordinarily I would have frozen the eggs, but I let these hatch to see what the offspring would look like. I posted pics of the offspring on the CONCH-L listserve, and the consensus was that they are ordinary Otalas. Even though the ranges of T. pisana and O. lactea are similar, their actual habitats differ slightly so they would not ordinarily encounter each other in the wild and mate. Being kept together in the same tank forced them into a closer relationship than they otherwise would have had, so mating took place. But there is no way those 2 produced the clutch of eggs laid by Paola. She was already carrying them when I got her. I have seen aspersas and Otalas mate in my tanks, and none of the eggs that were laid afterwards ever hatched. Cross-breeding might be possible, but any hybrid eggs laid are not likely to be fertile.
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Post by Paul on Jul 15, 2010 22:18:57 GMT
It's worth remembering also that snails can hold sperm - I've read information saying it can be up to 18 months, perhaps longer. The "mother" actually produces eggs and fertilises them on demand with other snails' sperm, perhaps from even more than one "father".
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Jul 15, 2010 23:15:45 GMT
There's a possibility the first lot are either pure aspersa or Eobania, depending on who laid them. Would be nice to have more pure Eobania... even if they're all related.
However, I have had more batches. One more I've removed (laid by aspersa... I swear he must have a fourth dimension pocket in his shell), one more I've missed (possibly laid by Eobania or a few I missed from aspersa's batch two) and another (or two) on the way.
I have witnessed them mating multiple times, both before the first batch and after. I assumed nothing would come of them getting frisky with each other, which is why I missed the first lot.
Let's see if I can figure a time line for you.
Received the Eobania on 10th April Yoinked the aspersa around beginning of June First hatchlings started showing up on 29th June with an explosion on 30th Second laying by aspersa around 9th July (he was under the surface for 3 days). I did not witness the Eobania laying, though I've dug around for more eggs... About eight hatchlings showing up today, 15th July. I'm ASSUMING they are new, but they could be very small members of the first batch that have gone unnoticed by me so far. Growth rates vary greatly. Some of the first batch are over 1cm while some are still only a few millimetres.
We'll see what happens as they get older. Exciting. Gonna need to crack out the old GALS tank soon. Getting a bit crowded as they get bigger. But they're so cute!
Perhaps I should allow a few of the next batch to hatch, to see if they definitely are breeding. Hmmm...
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Post by fabrizio on Jul 16, 2010 2:36:32 GMT
I still agree with the above said, and quite surely she was with babies already, as Coyote wrote...
Yet I strongly suggest you to let the batches to hatch, as something "strange" -perhaps due to other factors- is with the hatchlings themselves, as to their eyes-tentacles...
I would really see some pictures of them, when you have some spare time to do.
-And it comes to me anyway surprising, the ease these species cross-breed, although without any viable offsprings resulting (but it could still happens once, who knows...)
-I kept together different "types" of Otala (I was said they were all Otala lactea but I actually doubt of that), and noticed, as to the few mating I could witness, that the "similar types" -the ones, I would have regarded as belonging to the "same species", were mating together.... so, even when exposed to other, very similar, perhaps just different sub-species or "races", they seemed to prefer, to mate only with their "closer", similar specimens.
-This is a whole field worthy to be studied, too.
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Jul 16, 2010 8:58:09 GMT
They're still too small for good pictures I'm afraid... camera not great XD I'll have a go tonight though, to see if I can get some reasonably good close ups. The Eobania and aspersa are VERY friendly with each other. Always nuzzling each other, smooching their little faces together. Sometimes they'll nuzzle each other for a short while and then go about their business and sometimes it leads to a lot more (then I stop watching... 'cos that's just a bit creepy ). Perhaps he ISN'T an Eobania and is an unusual aspersa? The Cepaea I have in there is mostly ignored by both of them. Keeps himself to himself. I wonder how they'd react to another aspersa in the tank. If both would be interested in the Eobania, or if they'd both ignore him in favour of each other. Okay, plan; some from the next batch will be allowed to hatch. I'll start moving current babies over to a new tank on Sunday so as to be sure any new babies ARE from new batches and not just very slow growers from previous.
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Jul 16, 2010 21:28:58 GMT
I'm looking forward to pics of the little guys, and keep us informed if there are any new batches.
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Jul 17, 2010 0:39:28 GMT
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Jul 17, 2010 19:36:34 GMT
OMG, they are so tiny!
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apple
Archachatina degneri
Posts: 1,078
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Post by apple on Jul 21, 2010 16:32:14 GMT
Well, I already did talked with my spanish colleagues and they did said that´s Eobania vermiculata. There´s no doubt for them. E. vermiculata can store sperm and lay eggs after several months. Eobania. He's an Eobania. I'm 95% sure he is. This is good. While Eobania are not native they have been introduced and populations established. I can release the babies! Unless anyone wants one... There are established populations there?
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Jul 21, 2010 21:00:50 GMT
Oooh, so there's a very strong possibility I have a whole bunch of pure Eobania? Yey... Or they could be a bunch of pure UK garden snails XD Either way; MUST prevent more eggs from hatching.
Thank you for getting clarification Apple!
Found ONE reference to them being found in south east England.
Soooo... anyone want one?
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Aug 1, 2010 11:56:01 GMT
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Aug 2, 2010 4:07:21 GMT
Lovely snails! Interesting about the one-eyed ones all missing the same one. In that last one, I don't know if that's the brain or not; I thought the cerebral ganglia were closer to the head. Possibly it's just something dark the snail just swallowed, on its way to the crop. But it's amazing how transparent they are. Have you been able to see their hearts beating? It's an amazing thing to see.
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aerliss
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 281
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Post by aerliss on Aug 2, 2010 8:35:16 GMT
No, no little hearts yet. Will have to poke a few tomorrow XD
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Post by fabrizio on Aug 2, 2010 16:15:26 GMT
The cerebral (cephalic) ganglia form a "ring" around oesophagus, and the bulk of them is usually placed "below" it. The more a snail group is an "evolved" one, the more -usually- the cerebral ganglia come forward and more "packed" together. -There is a picture of their patterns variations among several Gastropod groups, I could post a link if of interest.
It would be interesting to adscertain, whether the tentacle lack correspond with the lack -or underdevelopment- of the concerned ganglion... try to observe carefully, even through a strong light! (be careful to be fast, to avoid snailet's suffering from drying)
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