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Post by natrat84 on Jan 2, 2006 17:37:15 GMT
Hiya all Have been reading recently about you all seemingly having problems with the blondes. So thought I'd give my opinion. To me, none of the symptoms anyones snails are showing are a real worry, they are all still eating right? My opinion in... They are just a VERY slow growing species, slower than any of the others, like tigers. Its also a cold time of the year, I'm not sure which part of Africa blondes come from but maybe the hottest part? But then all of Africa is hotter than it is here. The blistery foot thing.... I have seen what you describe on my Blondes, and personally I think its just how they are, those of you who have other light skinned snails to compare to, put the 2 together.... Texture wise my blondes are no different to the rest, but to look at, it does look like blistering but I think its just because of the very light colour. This is just my opinion... But it just seems that theres no HUGE problem, they still eat, ok they aren't too active, but this is winter, in England.. they are African. Not all species grow like Fulica do (except Iredalei lol) Fulica grow at the speed of light, but I think Blondes are probably just like Tigers. Like I said, just my opinion, but I'm not worried about mine, they still eat everyday and if there was much wrong with them they wouldn't do that Just wanted to say that I don't think everyone should be panicking when they are still eating, if they deeply retract and stop eating THEN you know you have a problem. I've had 2 snails stop eating, stop growing and eventually die, and although my Blondes don't 'appear' to be doing fab, they are nothing like those 2 were. But... if anyone is still worried, chicken mash and hemp are great foods for picking them up. Mine have it regularly anyway. Nat xxx
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Post by section8angel on Jan 2, 2006 17:43:51 GMT
I think the main worry is that they're rarely waking up to eat own their own. They have to be woken up?
Other people have said that their other snails have had the blistering, so I don't think that's much to worry about either.
It does seem to be that the slow growing, "rough" shell and hiding a lot are just dimi things and not problem things. Mine do all of that but are still very active when they're awake and are eating still.
My Iredalei isn't growing quickly either though =/ I must have a dud one rofl.
Nat, where did you get your chicken mash from?
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LisaLQ
Archachatina papyracea
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Post by LisaLQ on Jan 2, 2006 19:16:54 GMT
Mine dont eat, and no, the blistering isn't anything to do with them being a different colour. Here's the pics I was supposed to put up on the other thread last night (and forgot to): Gary: Sally: It's all very well suggesting diets for them, but if you read the threads, you'd know that these snails wont eat, they have two or three weeks without food, then eat for a day - then go back to the start again. How are you supposed to get hemp down their necks if they wont eat? Again, if you've read the threads, you'll know that they do retract or bury themselves for a long time (without aestivating I must add - so not a temperature thing). They've had heat mats, various different substrates, mine are currenrly parked up against a radiator - so it's nothing to do with them being cold. In all honesty Nat, I think while I'm sure you're trying to be helpful, you've come across as rather patronising I think I know when there's something wrong with my snails - regardless of how well yours are doing.
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Val
Archachatina dimidiata
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Post by Val on Jan 2, 2006 19:25:41 GMT
Lisa has this blistering been any better since they have been on capillary matting?
Val
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LisaLQ
Archachatina papyracea
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Post by LisaLQ on Jan 2, 2006 20:50:47 GMT
No Val, but they were initially more active, now they spend their time either hanging off the top or buried under the moss. Waking them up and placing them on the food doesn't work - they just move over it and back to where they were. Warm baths dont seem to work either.
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Post by ceiron on Jan 2, 2006 22:47:57 GMT
if ya mean blondes as in dimidiata, i find mine are fast growing, they are one of the quickest growing species iahve and i find they eat loads, more then the rest combined :S
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LisaLQ
Archachatina papyracea
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Post by LisaLQ on Jan 3, 2006 1:55:53 GMT
Sally hitching a lift on Cooper. Cooper is younger than her.
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 3:38:50 GMT
Personally, I think most of the problems associated with the immaculata is related to weak genes or the retraction problem and the two are getting mixed. It sounds like most of the babies from my batch are growing pretty well. There has been an illness a lot of our snails seem to have contracted. I believe this has affected a few species including the immaculata. At the same time a few things don't add up. The first is the state of the shells. I haven't witnessed this is the cases of retraction I have seen, although I have seen their shells fade. In every batch of babies there are slow and fast growers. Some of the cases of lack of growth could simply be explained by this. My babies were born in May. The one baby I have kept that didn't die of that illness is around 6cm, which isn't bad growth seeing as it stopped eating for 2 months but actually did recover. So we are talking 1 cm per month. And the shell is still really nice. In captivity, weak snails now doubt often reach adulthood and breed. It could well be inbreeding as Sarah suggested or simply the weak young of a weak parent. The shell issue is also contentious as it is suggested in some places that immaculata have a weak periostracum and I must admit that many of the shells I have seen are really worn. The scuffing could well be this layer peeling off naturally. On the other hand this isn't supported necessarily in the "dimidiata" variant. If your snails are not eating at all seem to suffer from this retraction problem read this: www.petsnails.co.uk/index.php?action=problems&type=retracted#startto help you identify it. The first thing to do is to try and get your snails eating using heat and humidity. If they still don't then I think they may be suffering from an illness which may not be related to breeding directly, except that weaker babies may be more affected. Have you received more snails before they showed signs of illness? Also, if they are suffering the illness we have seen you will notice them deteriorate with perhaps only a brief respite. They become more retracted as they lose weight. How long they survive is related to their size, so small ones (<5 cm) won't surivive more than a few months and you would definitely notice this weight loss. Lastly, we often deliberated over the virtue of dormancy and regardless of what you think it is doubtless that bio-rhythmically snails will be affected by seasons, perhaps more so here in Europe because they're used to almost constant conditions with regard to light levels. And that doesn't necessarily mean they produce an epiphragm, that Nisbet paper shows that some snails will go into a semi-dormant state. So to sum up, I don't believe there is a "dimidiata" problem. I think it is a split between illness and weak babies. It may be true that in wild conditions immaculata have a lower viability for babies so we are seeing slightly more problems when we remove the element of survival of the fittest. However, I wouldn't say there is a "dimidiata" problem because there are many people keeping them successfully. I'd check for illness and then try and experiment with conditions to see if you can find an improvement.
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Post by ceiron on Jan 3, 2006 4:58:25 GMT
agree with paul, when any other animal if its not feeding and stuff then the first area to look at is habitat.
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LisaLQ
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Post by LisaLQ on Jan 3, 2006 10:30:25 GMT
Argh, I swear, it's like beating my head against a brick wall. Read my threads so see how much I've fiddled about with habitat and everything I've tried. 3 babies, in two different homes, all tiny, all bad shells, all not growing. Every other snail we own is growing and healthy. Even the ones in with the dimis. If it was illness, they'd all have it. If it was habitat, then one of the changes we've tried would have worked. They've had heat, they've had humidity, they've had compost/sphagnum/capillary etc etc etc.
Look at that pic of Sally and Cooper. Would you say that was due to how we're keeping them? Do you think that three snails out of the same batch were just unlucky? Two different owners.
It's so frustrating. Those who've kept up to date with the threads know we've tried everything. It's not about habitat. They're not just slow growers. There is something wrong.
And if you look on the boards, there's more people with dimis with problems than those without. So goes without saying - it's a dimi/immac thing surely?
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LisaLQ
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Post by LisaLQ on Jan 3, 2006 10:33:04 GMT
Ps. There's so many threads about this now - could we not merge them into one?
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 12:21:29 GMT
Argh, I swear, it's like beating my head against a brick wall. Read my threads so see how much I've fiddled about with habitat and everything I've tried. 3 babies, in two different homes, all tiny, all bad shells, all not growing. Every other snail we own is growing and healthy. Even the ones in with the dimis. If it was illness, they'd all have it. If it was habitat, then one of the changes we've tried would have worked. They've had heat, they've had humidity, they've had compost/sphagnum/capillary etc etc etc. Look at that pic of Sally and Cooper. Would you say that was due to how we're keeping them? Do you think that three snails out of the same batch were just unlucky? Two different owners. It's so frustrating. Those who've kept up to date with the threads know we've tried everything. It's not about habitat. They're not just slow growers. There is something wrong. And if you look on the boards, there's more people with dimis with problems than those without. So goes without saying - it's a dimi/immac thing surely? I don't agree, and if you read my reply properly you'll see that I did not say your problems were habitat or illness related. I was suggesting that generally for anyone with these problems. Ian's in particular sounded like illness. I suspect that your problem may come from weak genes as I said. I had 90 babies, Beth had 110+, not to mention others sold in other countries, so I can't see how you can say that because a number of people are having this problem that it is a immaculata thing. There are hundreds of them about, with most growing perfectly healthily. The same symptoms show up in other snails. I had the same problem with some panthera and fulica as others have also. My advice was general and my opinion from seeing and experiencing a variety of problems since I've been doing this. Like I said, you rule out illness which you have done so then you rule out food which you have done. Then habitat which you have done and that leaves you with weak genes. You can ask for help and we can respond with the possibilities. If you are convinced that illness, food and habitat are not the problem then I know of no other explanation than weak snails. And as there are many strong dimidiata around, it can't be specific to this species. Lastly, with regard to you suggesting I don't read the threads, I do, every single one. How can you be so confident that your changes to habitat have been varied and sufficient enough? There are many factors involved and we do not know for certain what optimum conditions are required. Light length, saturation could be a factor. They may need dirtier conditions as specified by Nisbet or incredibly clean ones as suggested by D.Herbert (for South African snails which immaculata are). We don't know what there natural cycles or behavior is because we haven't witnessed them. There is so much possibility and it is true that immaculata may be more sensitive and I don't think there are any other South African species we keep to compare against. I'm trying to help you and I also raised points about watching them deteriorate. A slow growing snail is different to one that is wasting away. I can't understand why you are getting so frustrated and I bang my head on the wall when people react like this when we are trying to help and there is so little information known. I don't know what to say other than it has to be one of those 4 possibilities unless you can think of more...
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 12:22:25 GMT
oh, and threads can't be merged unfortunately which would be a very useful feature.
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 12:30:23 GMT
just to add, that one of my points was that some of these problems may not be immaculata specific, and in fact could be illness or habitat related. I think we may be seeing a number of different problems at work that perhaps look similar on the surface.
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 12:43:55 GMT
Regarding your point about them all having it, that foxed me with mine when I had 8 in the same tank. The consecutive illnesses were up to 8-10 weeks apart meaning if it was illness it could well be viral or have a very long incubation time. As I said, 3 species were affected but not all of the species or all of the snails so if it was viral it'd be dependent on the strength of the snail.
I also wondered about a genetic kill switch like many species of trees have, to ensure there isn't over population but this would be replicated in other clutches or species for that matter. In most cases though, snails are sent out and that is the last you hear of them. We have no idea how many snails reach adulthood because no-one ever keeps a full clutch. Perhaps many more are weak and die than we think. Maybe things like this forum are helping to highlight viability problems. Also it is possible you have 3 unlucky ones or just runts. If I am sending snails periodically like many ebay sellers and others do, I'm likely to send the biggest and oldest first so the youngest and smallest ones have the best chance to grow before being posted. So it's quite possible someone could end up with 3 of the weakest near the end in the belief that they are simply smaller and therefore younger. 100 babies in a tub look pretty much identical.
That's what the deep retraction page is about really, an extension of the lack of eating/movement and the investigation of the possibilities because I've never been able to contain it or explain it; there are contradictions everywhere.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2006 12:53:29 GMT
I think we are justified in worrying about this. Ive had 3 groups of immaculata from completely different places. the first were from holland, they retracted and died. the second were from sweden, they didnt grow and eventually died. the third (which i have at the moment) are from Italy and theyre not growing much, and getting slightly retracted. I might put them on cappillary and see what happens.
perhaps, they dont like being sent out and going to different places. maybe theyre so sensetive that going to a new environment scares them or something?
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 12:58:15 GMT
I think we are justified in worrying about this. I agree, I spent loads of time trying to suss it out. It hasn't reoccurred for me for a while touch wood but I really need to know what it is. perhaps, they dont like being sent out and going to different places. maybe theyre so sensetive that going to a new environment scares them or something? That's a fair point, it could be a factor. Again though, it is hard to assess because so many seem fine.
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 13:03:01 GMT
Mike, you mentioned having immaculata from a while back, didn't you have the shells? Did they grow ok?
One other thing I've remembered is that Christabel from the snail pages mentioned having an unidentified South African snail some years back that did not do well. On seeing the blonde snails she thought they could be the same species, which would've explained the South African thing that we now know to be the case. She has also experienced the symptoms in other snails although in what she thought were isolated cases. Unfortunately neither thing helps us define the problem because any deterioration still could be illness, habitat that is only ok for this species but perhaps not perfect and weak genes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2006 13:09:12 GMT
ive still got the shells from the immaculata (dimidiata) i had from summer 2004.they were about 5cm when i got them, and only had a tiny bit of new growth which seemed to lack pigmentation.
the thing is, the snails had fine growth up until they were sent to me (im not implying im a bad owner) its just that maybe after theyre sent away from where they were born they get a bit frightened. like remember the time anjie sent a brixton margie to nat and it didnt eat anything but when it went back to anjie it started eating again. similarly the ones from anneth had fine shell growth until i had them, even tho they had lots of cuttlefish.
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 13:12:20 GMT
It could be a factor there's no denying that. You'd think you'd see more cases though.
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
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Post by KathyM on Jan 3, 2006 13:57:06 GMT
I'm going to paste what I posted in the other threads:
I'm pretty sure Justin is either dying or dead now. Last time I checked this morning, he was still breathing but had retracted completely with warm baths having no effect. This is not a moisture/warmth problem for definite. He has steadily retracted further and further day by day and although initially warm baths were bringing him back out, he hasn't eaten for a long time now.
I understand everyone's right to an opinion, and I really do appreciate any posts made with theories into the cause of hi problems, but nowhere did I say Justin was eating okay. The blistering I feel is a separate issue (I've had no eating/growth problems with any of the others who are all fit and healthy), as my other snails have shown signs of this as well (so it's not related to me not having seen blond snails before). I wonder if there's any relation between an over moist atmosphere/substrate and this foot problem?
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LisaLQ
Archachatina papyracea
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Post by LisaLQ on Jan 3, 2006 14:35:08 GMT
Paul, I'm sorry for getting upset, I just feel as if there's nothing I can do to fix this - I've tried more heat, less heat, more water, less water, different food, different tank, different company etc etc etc. On their own they were worse. In with the fulicas, the fulicas aren't liking the extra moisture. I have a spare tank and heat mat, but when they're alone they just wont come out at all. I must apologise for getting upset, but I feel like I'm making them suffer - and really worrying whether trying all these things is helping or just prolonging something that we'd put any other animal to sleep for. Mike - your theory is really interesting - because my two had lovely baby shells when they arrived, but as they've thickened up - they've gone like they are above. Like you, I'm not saying I'm a bad owner though - it's just happened - probably as part of burying themselves a lot. Kathy's snail came with a bad shell though and hasn't grown at all since. They have grown slightly, but not so much to say they're growing. I mean - they've gone from thin shelled babies, to similar sized tiny adult looking snails. Like miniatures. Kathy's still has his baby shell. We've had them since September. So in nearly 5 months, we've not had any significant growth, and out of those 5 months, I've probably seen them out and eating about 3 times. Putting them on food does nothing, they just move away and bury or hang from the "roof". Gary's getting thinner, cant really tell on Sally as she's so tiny anyway. They're not eating, they're blistering up when handled (and on occasion when not handled too). They have no new shell growth, what I thought was new shell growth is their flesh curling round the edge of their shells (which the fulicas are doing too - so might be due to too much moisture?). I just dont know what to do. Do I leave them and see what happens? Do I try something else (suggestions welcome)? Or do I find a humane way to put them to sleep?
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 15:46:42 GMT
It is a very tough question about whether to put them to sleep but I think there is hope. If it is related to the problems I've had, I had 2 recover. Only 2 but that is at least something. The fact that they have survived for 5 months is encouraging, I would expect them to be dead by now. Although it may be humane to put them to sleep, I decided that I couldn't give up on them until I know for certain it is fatal. I think they reach a point of no return, I hope we can identify that to make this decision easier.
One thing you could try is external feeding. I have no idea if nutrition can permeate the skin but moisture can so it is worth a go. You could try a very, very weak vitamin solution or something like watered down green tea which is immune-boosting and good for health generally. I also rubbed fairly liquid food onto their mouths in the hope that some would be swallowed accidentally. You could try that. People force feed snakes, I wonder if it would be possible to force feed a snail using a pipette?
One of the other things it could be is some sort of internal tumour, I have heard aquatic snails being affected so it could be that. We'll never know unless we do a dissection and I failed to get that done coz I don't have the tools and I have no healthy snail to compare against. If a snail of mine dies of what I think is natural causes I am thinking of doing a post mortem with photographs to find a base level. Gruesome but it needs to be done if we are to examine this possibility.
Keep trying to feed them, this really is the key. There seems to be no "wonder" food but perhaps they can be stimulated into it somehow. They are bound to get some water inside their mouths if they are sitting in water deep enough for their head to go under for them to get out, like us in the sea. And perhaps this could help them.
I have seen blistering or drastic swelling. In my case it was caused by a too-strong vitamin/water solution I was trying external feeding with. Washing it off immediately made the swelling go down but it does sound like some external chemical or something is causing it. It could be your tap water, or even something on your skin that hasn't come off fully with washing but again you don't mention your other snails with this problem. It is baffling.
I think the truth is that the symptoms we see are the result of a number of different afflictions and factors which is what is making it so difficult to figure it out. We are essentially in the dark ages of snail medicine and as we are not cruel enough to experiment it will be slow going.
Which gives me an idea, if a dead snail's body still reacts to chemicals we could use a dead snail to experiment with various chemicals, perhaps non-solvent based herbal tinctures we can at least eliminate some risk for any experimental treatments. Unlikely though...
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Post by Paul on Jan 3, 2006 16:02:31 GMT
Perhaps another explanation for these problems is they are the result of self-fertilisation which could be possible. I had some babies once that I think could have been the result of self-fertilisation. They all died within 10 days so weak batches do occur. I'm still not convinced about self-fertilisation, I suspect malacologists were surprised that snails could produce young when isolated, not realising they can store sperm. But, in a recent publication it says that there are British snails that self-fertilise so you never know. It doesn't actually tell you if by self-fertilising they mean they actually control the process of fertilisation or them using their sperm to fertilise their own eggs but as we known that snails can store sperm I think it means real self-fertilisation.
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Post by section8angel on Jan 3, 2006 17:52:50 GMT
Do they still rasp on -you- when you pick them up Lisa? If so Pauls force feeding idea could work that way?
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