My container too small?

[saki114]

Currently my snailies (helix aspersa) are living in a 3 gallon Rubbermaid container. Is that too small? I also want to improve my lid cuz Im using some plastic wrap with hole poked from a sizable screwdriver secured with a giant red rubber band. Is that all right and how can I make it better?

[foghog]

here is some reasonable information regarding aspersa I think. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliciculture#Pens_and_enclosures it covers population limits and the ideas behind them.

it doesn't cover your lid though. snails are a lot stronger then one would think. experiments have shown aspersa have pulled 10x their weight, and that was vertically. dragging horizontally they can pull 5 times that.....in other words plastic wrap is not a good idea and even lids that snap down and are not that secured can be a problem. for my enclosures I make locking clamps out of spring steel.
lucky they are not really bulldozers they will instead crawl onto the plastic. but I'd suggest a hard lid, like a plastic storage bin.

[coyote]

For figuring optimal tank size, you can use the snail calculator here:
www.petsnails.co.uk/snail-calc.php

How handy are you? Can you make a frame out of 1 x 2s and staple mesh window screening onto it? In a pinch, you can stretch an old cotton t-shirt across the opening and secure it however you can; it wouldn't allow any light in, but it would allow air and it would be secure.

You can get various sizes of Critter Totes in pet supply stores (usually near the reptile or small animal section), with snap-on ventilated lids, for a reasonable price. Use the snail calculator to find the right size for your snails, then find a Critter Tote closest to the same total area.

[foghog]

How is that calculator setup coyote? I notice for 100 H. Aspersa it recommends
Results

What size tank will I need for 100 snails with a shell length of 3.5cm?

Ideal tank area (length x depth): 8750 cm² ( 0.88 m² or 9.47 feet² )

Suggested Tank Sizes for 100 snails:
L (cm) x H (cm) x D (cm)
729 x 15 x 15
411 x 15 x 21
94 x 15 x 94

where as I have read a number of heliculture sources say the 6-8 per square foot is the most efficient limitation. and as the source (I presented above claims:
"Population density also affects successful snail production. Pens should contain no more than six to eight fair-sized snails per square foot, or about four large H. pomatias; or figure one kilogram per square meter (about .2 pounds of snail per square foot), which automatically compensates for the size of the snails. If you want them to breed, best results will occur with not more than eight snails per square meter (0.8 per square foot). Some sources say that, for H. pomatia to breed, 2 to 4 snails per square meter (0.2 to 0.4 per square foot) is the maximum.

Snails tend not to breed when packed too densely or when the slime in the pen accumulates too much. The slime apparently works like a pheromone and suppresses reproduction. On the other hand, snails in groups of about 100 seem to breed better than when only a few snails are confined together. Perhaps they have more potential mates from which to choose. Snails in a densely populated area grow more slowly even when food is abundant, and they also have a higher mortality rate. These snails then become smaller adults who lay fewer clutches of eggs, have fewer eggs per clutch, and the eggs have a lower hatch rate. Smaller adult snails sell for less. Dwarfing is quite common in snail farming and is attributable mainly to rearing conditions rather than heredity factors. Crowding snails is false economy. A recommended rate for H. aspersa is not more than one-third pound per square foot (3.6 kg/m²) of soil surface for snails that weigh more than 1 gram and not more than 0.2 pound per square foot (2.2 kg/m²) for snails that weigh less. (One ounce is about 28 grams.)"

[coyote]

Heliculture is about snail farming for commercial purposes, not for the hobbyist seeking to set up the optimal conditions for their snail's comfort, so I would be wary following those particular recommendations.

As to the snail calculator on the main website, the site owner, Paul, is the one to ask specific questions about that.

[foghog]

it isn;t for the snails comfort per say, but it is for optimal size and health I would argue. Heliculturists surely don't last far in business with smaller sizes and poor health. and there dimensions are larger for the snails then the calculators was my point with only 6-8 per square foot. furthermore lets face it...heliculture being for production purposes is often where a lot of the research comes from, since scientists often like to be paid. at least in regards to H. aspersa and H. pomatia which are the two largest heliculture species in production surely.

[coyote]

Snail farmers sell their stock on to the food trade, they do not keep every individual around for its entire natural life and thus the don't have the incentive to provide optimal conditions conducive to long-term, life-long fitness.

It's easy to get short-term good results if the stock is always being sold on before too long, but trickier to sustain that over the full natural life of the snail. If it interferes with their profit, they are going to cut corners at the expense of the snails. They are in business to make money, not hobbyists.

[foghog]

I can see your point, but I have to ask, are you making this conclusion based merely on you deciding so and not liking the idea of heliculture, or are you doing so based on actual data and information to that being true? because I have not found anything that suggests the methods used by heliculturists lessen the life or life long fitness of snails at all, in fact quite the contrary. If there is such data that you know of I would like to read it, though for sure.
There is no doubt in my mind that they do things that are based strictly on the bottom line, much of which we s enthusiasts would find distasteful, surely, and it is highly possible that some of these methods themselves lead to the larger sizes, and 'apparent' health and it could result in the short term health surely....but without real information, just conjecture it does doesn't work for me, and shouldn't for anyone.
but once more in this case, the heliculturists suggest a larger area rather then a smaller one, and less of a density of population because of it, being 6-8/sq. foot compared to 10.55/sq. foot (heh I find it amusing thinking of since it is snails, it is 10.55 foots/sq. foot)....I cannot see any circumstance where that being so would be to the detriment of the snail or it's life-long fitness, but I do know for a fact that greater density does negatively effect it.

[coyote]

The basic business principle is to make money. People who keep livestock for business don't treat them as pets. It's standard practice. We as snail hobbyists keep them as pets and don't expect to get a monetary return on our investment. Most of us who don't breed them and sell the offspring lose money, but it doesn't matter to us because we didn't set out to make money off it. We do it for the enjoyment.

Any snail farmer who loses money on his set-up is going to change his procedures to cost less or get out of the snail farming business altogether.

[copigeon]

I think you're probably expecting too much of the calculator to be fair - its really designed with smallish numbers in mind, not hundreds.

And the principals of rearing a meat snail differ greatly from a pet environment - for a start youre talking modified polytunnels or similar as housing, often outdoor spaces where the rain does the cleaning. Rearing a large number of snails in a small space causes its own problem in waste production alone, and thus the meat trade doesnt offer much to the hobbiest in the ways forward.
9ft glass tank probably compares nicely to a 4ft outdoor pen when you consider the elements, free draining flooring, rain. A plastic box is a very different prospect.

[ness]

Well as for the original question, Saki114 how many snails do you have? What is the size of your tub in centimeters or inches? I don't personally visualise gallons well - sorry

Opting for bigger is not a bad option, especially considering you can then have room for putting in plants and hides etc.

[foghog]

both decent points, coyote and copigeon. but I still have to say by your own points of heliculturists doing so for profit, they themselves want MORE snails per sq. ft rather then less. and as I have shown the calculator is deciding on more per square ft by 30%..... This is only exasperated and shown by copigeons points of "often outdoor spaces where the rain does the cleaning." makes perfect sense as well as "9ft glass tank probably compares nicely to a 4ft outdoor pen when you consider the elements, free draining flooring, rain. "....excellent points indeed.
So is the point of a heliculturist raising them for food and 'not necessarily' for the long term health...however, once more I will ask "are you making this conclusion based merely on you deciding so and not liking the idea of heliculture, or are you doing so based on actual data and information to that being true? because I have not found anything that suggests the methods used by heliculturists lessen the life or life long fitness of snails at all, in fact quite the contrary. If there is such data that you know of I would like to read it, though for sure.
There is no doubt in my mind that they do things that are based strictly on the bottom line, much of which we s enthusiasts would find distasteful, surely, and it is highly possible that some of these methods themselves lead to the larger sizes, and 'apparent' health and it could result in the short term health surely....but without real information, just conjecture it does doesn't work for me, and shouldn't for anyone. "

[copigeon]

saki114, 3 gallons is about 13/14 litres, which is plenty big enough for a few aspersa. Really most species do well in smaller enclosures, things which will affect your decision are your chosen substrate or whether or not youre creating a display enclosure.
Soil based substrates foul quickly in a small enclosure as they are not as easily replaced as say moss or capillary. Using plants can help maintain a good quality substrate with a small species. So there are other factors to consider rather than just enclosure size when deciding if an enclosure is suitable.

[hoodooman]

Foghog: while you are absolutely correct in pointing out that the majority of research on snails is probably done using agricultural money (sources of available funding all too often dictate the priorities of scientific research these days) I think it's important to draw a hard line between the findings of academic researchers operating with ag-industry or department of agriculture grants and what is simply considered best practice in the commercial snail industry, as this is where the differences in priority tend to come into play. For example, those raising animals commercially for meat (and unfortunately too often those raising them for the pet industry) tend to emphasize rapid growth of the animal, especially animals with highly variable growth rates such as snails and turtles/tortoises, whereas all of the available research on such animals in the wild points to the general idea that slow but steady growth is ideal for the long term health of the animal--especially shelled animals--and growth which occurs too quickly can lead to long-term health problems such as weakening/thinning of the shell and various internal issues. It could well be that it turns out that snails raised in slightly closer proximity, tend to be healthier long term, and/or more active (happier?) but do not grow nearly as quickly due to increased competition for food. Note that this is pure speculation on my part, I have no idea. It could just as well be--and is possibly more likely--that the snail calculator is somewhat skewed toward the minimum space requirement as cost is often a large issue for the amateur hobbyist. But it still makes a good illustration of how the differences in priorities can come into play.

It's the same thing when it comes to breeding. Increasing a species' general "fitness" has a lot to do with what factors you are selecting for--which ones are important to you. In the case of commercial production it is often size, growth rate, and I would think reproductive success--although this may not always be the case. When taken to extremes, this can produce what are basically "manufactured" animals that would have extremely low viability in the wild, such as some of the giant variants of H. Aspersa developed in France which have fairly fragile shells, or the turkeys which have taken over the American industry which require artificial insemination in order to reproduce because their breasts are too large for natural copulation (there's an image ). Another example of what I would consider irresponsible breeding is the albino Burmese python that was popular in the reptile trade for a few years in there because people liked the "unique" look of it--therefore there were a lot of them bred for sale, despite the fact that they have demonstrably shorter life spans and are more prone to disease and various genetic problems than plain old "normal" Burmese. It's all a matter of priorities. I would assume most pet owners would be more interested in selecting for longevity, hardiness, and sociability--or in trying to keep captive lines as close to the "original" natural state of the animal as possible. Although, with a species like H. Aspersa that has been interacting with humans since the bronze age, that would seem to be functionally impossible. The best you could do, I suppose, would be to try to preserve as much of the genetic variability as possible from the wild populations.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents (or maybe more like $1.25 or so, I know I can be long-winded. My wife calls it my "lecture" mode, and shuts me down as soon as I get started .) That's why I think that the best "research group"/"sample pool" is responsible snail keepers exchanging information with each other on what seems to work and what doesn't, as I mentioned at greater length (yes, it gets longer! ) over in the hibernation thread. ;D

[coyote]

Foghog, you seem very intent on defending snail farming. Is that something you are interested in doing?

Can you find data that snail farming care practices extend the life of snails, greater than hobbyist care practices? I doubt such data exist, since it's not cost-effective for snail farmers to keep any of their stock long enough to find out. They get sold to the food trade before old age or any longer-term illnesses have a chance to develop clinical signs.

[foghog]

not even sure why you would even think I 'am intent of defending snail farming." I have no need to defend them, they do what they do, for the reasons they do, and thats their business....they hardly need my defense on it. but it was you who brought into question their practices as lowering the lifespan, but I will take your response as you do not actually have any data from 'somewhere' supporting that position....I wasn't attacking you on it...I just wanted to read the material if you actually did have some, because I was interested. That is part of the reason to be part of a forum about snails after all...to find out about snails and some of the specifics involved. this forum is pet snails I am aware not business snails....but still I think it would be foolish to ignore the information and practices of commercial growers, since doing something for a business, or food supply has many decades/ centuries of experience available. in any case it definitely doesn't hurt to look at the specifics involved to possibly gain more theory.

[coyote]

You were the one who cited snail farming practices in the first place. Why do so on a pet snail board?

[foghog]

I just addressed that did I not, when I said "I think it would be foolish to ignore the information and practices of commercial growers, since doing something for a business, or food supply has many decades/ centuries of experience available. in any case it definitely doesn't hurt to look at the specifics involved to possibly gain more theory. " besides there is no reason to believe commercial outfits would not also keep many as personal pets as well. Actually we should say high volume commercial outfits, because the personal breeders and sellers are also a commercial outfit.....just smaller volume.

[hoodooman]

I'm going to make one more attempt to suggest that maybe you guys are talking past one another, and then I'm bowing out, as: A) as a newbie I would be nuts to put myself in the middle of a potential flame war between two of the most active posters on this group, and B) my priority in being here is to learn as much as I can about how experienced hobbyists tend to do things and possibly/hopefully find out where to get some snails.

Foghog: you are absolutely right in pointing out that information should not necessarily be dismissed simply based on its source (in this case the heliculture industry) and coyote is equally correct in pointing out that the potential biases of this source should be taken into account. Regardless (or irregardless as the case may be) in this case the discrepancy is pointless to argue as we don't know what source the person who set up the snail calculator used, nor what factors it was intended to take into account. The differences involved (and while 30% may seem like a large amount, it might really not be when you take the vast differences of scale the two mechanisms are using into account) may just be do to a disagreement between the source(s) cited by foghog and the ones used to set up the calculator. Or, more likely in my opinion, they may be designed to answer slightly different questions, under vastly different conditions, taking different factors into account. As the source you quote itself mentions foghog, it is primarily talking about quantities of snails in excess of 100 (or even multiples of 100) and is focused on reproductive rates, i.e.: "Snails tend not to breed when packed too densely or when the slime in the pen accumulates too much. The slime apparently works like a pheromone and suppresses reproduction. On the other hand, snails in groups of about 100 seem to breed better than when only a few snails are confined together." Whereas, I think it's safe to assume that the snail calculator (as copigeon points out) is aimed at a situation involving more like four or five snails, which is way too small for a commercially viable operation and therefore of little concern to the person who authored the info that foghog is quoting. It's very possible (probable in my opinion) that many issues--such as slime accumulation--which come into play when you are talking about hundreds of snails, have little or no effect on keeping a few snails together. Also the snail calculator is also most likely taking into account the standard sizes (and possible costs) of readily available enclosure containers as demonstrated by the fact that it gives several suggestions for the final dimensions. It's also likely that they're really talking about different species of snails--the snail calculator is probably biased towards GALS, as they are the most popular pet snails (outside the U.S.) whereas, as foghog mentions, the most common snails in heliculture are H. Aspersa and variants and H. Pomatia.

Ultimately what it comes down to, IMHO (in my humble opinion) is that foghog, you really need to be having this discussion with the guy who set up the calculator, and coyote, I really don't think that foghog is defending the heliculture industry, so much, as defending a principle of evaluating information (and defending it to the death as he has an occasionally exasperating--the less charitable could even say off-putting --tendency to do) but I think he means well, and it is an important point that is too often overlooked in wider society these days. And I'm just jumping in the middle as I have an exasperating (though hopefully not off-putting) tendency to do, because I think you both are intelligent, well-informed, individuals whose opinions I respect, even if you are sometimes coming from very different places.

So let's just chill out, y'all, and try to be friendly . Snails are such mellow, happy creatures (except the predatory ones which are less mellow, but still happy critters?) try to get your zen on and think like them .

[foghog]

heh thanks mom.....I didn't see us getting into a flame war, but maybe I was missing something. no matter I'm going hunting in about a hour, and won't be back until monday, hopefully with a few bambi's strapped to the hood of my truck. ttyl.

[saki114]

Sorry I couldn't reply very fast; ness, I have 8 helix aspersas, but I don't know the size of my tub....sorry I am also looking for some interesting decor for my snails that does not require purchasing. Any ideas?

[ness]

Well there are many people who provide us with data on snails, from scientists who are interested in snails in nature for various reasons, snail farmers, hobbyists, shell collectors, naturalists, to conservationists, all of whom contribute to data that can be of use to other groups.

When it comes to keeping snails as pets the first place I would look for advice is a community of pet snail keepers, as they are the most likely of folk to be keeping snails of a similar species, in the same sort of numbers within the home, so I can use hobyist data and most easily replicate the care in my own home.

That doesn't mean that any other source of information is not useful, it's just that most of the time the other sources are an interesting add-on to snail knowledge. What I'm trying to say is that the experience from many people's collective years of keeping snails on a hobby-type basis will probably give the best information with regards keeping snails as pets. Other sources of information expand our knowledge but are not always directly helpful in the day to day care of our snails, though of course there are exceptions.

With regards snail to space ratio:... in large numbers the snail-farming world may have the optimal snail to space ratio in terms of breeding as many as possible for the amount of room in the enclosure, (note that these snails are kept in different conditions i.e. outside). However in smaller numbers, i.e. as often kept by hobbyists, the ratio is not necessarily the same, especially as the conditions are not the same. The moisture in the soil in tanks does not drain away as it would outside. Keeping too many snails in one tank is likely to decrease soil quality quite quickly. The words waterlogged, stale, unhealthy stagnent and stinky come to mind, plus eggs layed in these conditions are likely to die, the snails themselves will not be able to burrow into the soil as it would be too wet. Overcrowding is something to be avoided. Space is best.

Therefore my own advice (may not be the best) would be to take the information offered, look at the snails in your tank and monitor the behaviour of the snails and the soil quality. Ask yourself if they look overcrowded, if the soil deteriorates quickly (you shouldn't have to change all of the soil often, just skim the top layer and replace it every so often. The soil underneath should remain quite clean and fresh, damp but not wet), also if the snails appear to avoid the soil or if they are not growing well etc. You'll soon get a feel for whether or not your snails are maintained in healthy conditions. It's not an exact science..

[ness]

Saki:...
Decor. Hmm well plant pots go down well, as to hardwood twigs (you may want to lightly microwave them to kill pests, or plunge the twigs into boiling water and then dry them).
Perhaps an ornament made from fired clay if you have one.
You could place part of a plastic bottle in there, cut in half legth-wise, to make a cave, then cover it with soil but leave the opening free. Perhaps grow some cress.

If you can allow yourself a small budget then fishtank ornaments are often good, as are plastic plants and real moss.

[saki114]

Also, how do I grow my own moss? I mean, like the kind of moss that is really fuzzy and grows on rocks.

[coyote]

Moss needs cool, very moist conditions and indirect light to flourish. You could try bringing home a small bit of it from outdoors and seeing how it does in your tank. I've tried but had no luck with it.