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Post by x Sarah x on Aug 19, 2006 14:53:21 GMT
Well as you may or may not know, some people have been talking about the fact immaculata have been rasping other species shells and even skin, and maybe even to have caused the death of smaller snails. Although the genus immaculata includes the following: var. panthera var. smithii two-tones and maybe glutinosa it seems that var. panthera are the criminals in every case! Are these varients carnivores, or omnivores? Well most probably omnivores for the basic fact that they having been living healthily for many years on only fruit and veg. Should we include meat in their diet? In my opinion yes, to be honest meat should be provided in every snails diet because in the wild snails will scavenge dead animals and insects, tests have proven snails will grow faster and healthier on a diet of mainly veg with meat included. But with var. panthera maybe they need a diet of meat with added veg? well i don't know but i certainly think we should start giving at least them some meat as they seem so keen to chomp down on their tankmates! or do they? well my answer is yes, although i happen to have lost a fair amount of baby snails earler in the year, and on occasions found my panthera with their heads buried into the shell eating the snail inside, i was never sure whether the panthera were eating the remains of a dead snail or not. But they were seperated off from any other species after and it seemed to do the trick, i didn't have anymore losses, but i decided to take a chance and put a fairly large, perfectly healthy snail in with the panthera and observe, when i placed the snail in their tank, everything seemed fine, they all ate some veg, had a slime around and went off to bed. I decided to leave the snail in the tank all night and the following day (remember these panthera haven't been in with any other species for a while and haven't had any meat included in the diet). Well! the following night the result was horrifying, its terrible but had to be done... They have completely savaged the ventricosa, i do feel guilty but i think you all need to know, i would like to advise you all if you have any of these snails to please seperate them from the others, now it seems two-tones do not show any sign of canabalism, my two-tones have lived fine with the rest of my snails for a long time, and it seems panthera have even tried to eat two-tones on occasions, my panthera tanks has smithii in also as some people have reported smithii rasping at snails shells before, and i wouldn't like to take the chance. Now it seems, these snails only begin to show signs of canabalism when they reach full grown, as young snails these never caused any problems, when they hit maturity they did start to rasp at other snails shells, but as soon as they hit full grown i began to have problems with them. I hope this is of some help to you, or has made things clear for you.
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Aug 19, 2006 17:03:55 GMT
I apprciate your post. Wouldn't personally have put a loved/valued pet in with them if they'd done it before though - seems a bit of an odd thing to do (but I'm soft and mine are loved pets not experiments). I hope the ventri recovers.
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LisaLQ
Archachatina papyracea
Old friend (emphasis on the "old")
Posts: 2,995
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Post by LisaLQ on Aug 19, 2006 18:01:37 GMT
I replied on Bugnation. Didn't see it on here!
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Post by loops on Aug 19, 2006 18:59:45 GMT
I must say I don't quite agree with the way you have set out to make this point but that is just me I wouldn't like to see anything hurt in any kind of way but I suppose you felt that you had to do this!
Leia.X
P.S Hope you don't take offence but everybody will feel differently about this subject.
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Post by x Sarah x on Aug 19, 2006 21:28:11 GMT
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Aug 20, 2006 0:16:13 GMT
Can we just confirm which variant of immaculata we're talking about? There isn't a var. panthera, that's all, and on Bugnation Kevin says that the fatter, shorter shelled variants are var. immaculata. Edited to add: There's also the question of variants being crossbred and the variant names only applying to the looks - how does that narrow this down to one variant?
I'd like to know as my "smithis" which were later confirmed as "pantheras" then as "var. immaculata" are not fat shelled, they are long and slender shelled.
I have never eperienced any problems with mine, so maybe yours were deficient in something that brought this on?
I just don't get how this can be "panthera" (or whatever variant yours is) specific and not something that will be species specific. And then that begs the question - why not "two tones", etc?
I have often said I think Justin may have died because of some need of immacs that we're not aware of, but he was a two tone and you're saying it doesn't happen ever with them.
I think this may go deeper, and feel that other variant need to be looked into more before a blanket statement of "the truth about panthera" (again, which variant is that?) can be made.
How is the ventri now? I hope he's recovered from his ordeal, the poor thing.
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nacre
Archachatina marginata
Member from the start, but took a well needed break and got back to the forum in 2006.
Posts: 26
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Post by nacre on Aug 20, 2006 7:42:57 GMT
Sarah is refering to the snails previously called Lissachatina panthera. A while ago, we used to call them L. panthera striped and L. panthera brown. But as we all know, they are now Achatina immaculata.
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Aug 20, 2006 8:38:30 GMT
Yeah I know that, but thank you very much for your post. However, there are differences and sometimes overlapping of the different variations. The only truly distinct one being "two tone", which apparently doesn't have this problem. I'm wondering why, when they're all the same species, and when variant names really don't mean a lot for other than two tones, this thread is aimed at a variant that doesn't even exist. Is it just the immacs formally known as panthera (I'm getting the urge to sing Prince now) or is it all var. immaculata? Because now we know they're all the same species, why is it only those previously known as panthera being warned about? That's what I mean with my last post. Very confused now. Edited to add: What I mean is we've known for some time Sarah's snail and a couple of others do rasp at others. We've read about what Sarah's snail has done in the past, and I'm not sure we're learning anything new from slinging it in with another snail and taking gory pictures to warn people. What we need to do now is work out 1. why and 2. which snails these are. Because I find it all very confusing. Why only one variant of a snail that's been cross bred, so as to make variants indistinct? Because really there is so much of a mess surrounding immac variants, I suspect this, if indicative of a specific problem to these snails, must be a species wide problem, not just linked to one type of "look"? And if not, what is it about this variant that makes them different from the others when it comes to this. It'd be fascinating to find out, but I don't think we'll do it by slinging in our pets with the snails we already know do this
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Post by copigeon on Aug 20, 2006 10:17:53 GMT
The facts of who and what and which species aside.
I have a tested solution for the meat protien problem which may have already been mentioned but regardless....
Hedgehog food. Doesnt contain any sodium content, the snails eat it, its cooked like catfood so the concerns about uncooked meat stood around can be wavered (still wouldnt recomend leaving it out for more than 24 hours.) You can buy it in small packets like... caeser dog food? Comes in, or tins.
Tried it on my retis last night and they wolfed it down.
Can be kept in the fridge and dished out as and when.
If anyones interested in trying the meat protien on thier snails, this is my best recomendation for a cleaner safer alternative to raw chicken etc.
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Aug 20, 2006 10:30:33 GMT
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Post by copigeon on Aug 20, 2006 10:42:49 GMT
Well the thing that led me to hedgehog food was the lack of salt. If it doesnt contain salt is probably the same?
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Post by katherineh on Aug 20, 2006 11:50:11 GMT
Is this a particular brand of hedgehog food, and where do you get it from? The only one I am familiar with is called "Spikes Dinner", and last time I checked it came in either dry pelleted or tinned forms, from major pet shops e.g. Pets at Home.
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Post by copigeon on Aug 20, 2006 13:53:15 GMT
Thats the one Im using (comes in the little foil packets?) have seen a different brand in tins not sure what it was now.
Im happy enough with its ingredients, and no ill effects thus far.
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Aug 20, 2006 15:03:08 GMT
Well the thing that led me to hedgehog food was the lack of salt. If it doesnt contain salt is probably the same? Nature's Menu cat food pouches are just meat (and Vit D3), no salt. I might try them on some when I next go to Jollye's
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Post by x Sarah x on Aug 20, 2006 19:50:24 GMT
Hello, The ventri is still alive, seems to be ok, although haven't witnessed it eating, but food has gone! Erm..yes like i said i only use the name panthera as two-tones and "smithii" as far as i know don't show this behavior and to save the confusion of which varient are we talking about? i just use panthera as they are formely known as that.. hold on i'll put a pic up... 4 of these snails were in there, the varients formely known as L. Panthera (striped and plain form) i never actually knew whether they were killing the other snails, i though maybe they were praying upon the carcass or ill snails, so i wasn't putting the snail in danger even though i already knew they were killing them, and i put 'gory' pictures up because its the only way to get people to stop and read, i have to make other people aware before there other snails fall victim, if indeed they do Hedgehog food, hmm never really came to mind, seems a good idea i might give it a try mine are having mince tonight, pur beef and pork, no added ingredients!
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Aug 20, 2006 22:10:40 GMT
Sorry Sarah - seems we have our wires crossed - in the first post I got the impression you deliberately put this snail in to test your theory - if that's not the case I apologise.
What were formally known as smithis and panthera are the same variant of immaculata though aren't they? That makes it even more confusing. I do think more examination into the other forms of immac are needed before we rule them out as safe, as there is little definition as it is between different variants, smithis turn out to be pantheras, then they both turn out to be var. immaculata, etc etc. It seems it's only looks that separate them at the moment? Which would suggest if this is indeed a "breed trait" for want of a better term, it would be at least all of one variant (eg. all var. immaculata). Oh I don't know.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2006 11:03:02 GMT
Sarah are these panthera that tried to eat the ventricosa wild caught?
I can't understand why only panthera would be meat-eaters and the other variants of immaculata not.
Anyway, I hope the ventricosa gets better. Personally I wouldn't have put a snail in danger as an 'experiment'
Mike
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Post by sezzy5889 on Aug 21, 2006 12:56:13 GMT
And personally i prefere not to answer any more questions until we carry on with the subject at hand and not the reason why there was a ventri in the tank!
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Post by katherineh on Aug 21, 2006 13:51:28 GMT
Regarding processed pet foods, how do you know if they are salt-free? I have just read the ingredients on a tin of Whiskas and it says, "Meat and animal derivatives (including min 4% chicken),minerals". Followed by the analysis of protein, ash, oils etc. Not a dicky bird about sodium or salt. Looked for hedgehog food at Tesco's, but no luck!
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Post by craftysnails on Aug 21, 2006 14:01:19 GMT
Try Pet at home they sometimes sell spikey (I think that what they called) food for hegdehog.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2006 14:02:26 GMT
Regarding processed pet foods, how do you know if they are salt-free? I have just read the ingredients on a tin of Whiskas and it says, "Meat and animal derivatives (including min 4% chicken),minerals". Followed by the analysis of protein, ash, oils etc. Not a dicky bird about sodium or salt. Looked for hedgehog food at Tesco's, but no luck! I think it's added salt we have to worry about
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Post by katherineh on Aug 21, 2006 14:25:21 GMT
Would sodium chloride be classed as a mineral?
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Post by Paul on Aug 21, 2006 16:18:50 GMT
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Aug 21, 2006 16:29:59 GMT
Regarding processed pet foods, how do you know if they are salt-free? I have just read the ingredients on a tin of Whiskas and it says, "Meat and animal derivatives (including min 4% chicken),minerals". Followed by the analysis of protein, ash, oils etc. Not a dicky bird about sodium or salt. Looked for hedgehog food at Tesco's, but no luck! If I remember rightly, most large commercial cat food companies add salt to their foods to make the poor quality meat they use more palatable for a cat. They also add a a fair bit of sugar to some for the same reason. I would stick with one of the "natural" brands to be on the safe side
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Arno
Archachatina puylaerti
Posts: 1,493
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Post by Arno on Aug 21, 2006 19:57:26 GMT
I must say I don't quite agree with the way you have set out to make this point but that is just me I wouldn't like to see anything hurt in any kind of way but I suppose you felt that you had to do this! Leia.X P.S Hope you don't take offence but everybody will feel differently about this subject. I agree with you on this and don't see why it had to be done to this extent.If you felt it was necessary to do this,then why not keep an eye on them.Then when you saw the immaculata's starting to eat the ventri,remove it right away.Any responsible snailowner would never let it go this far.
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