Rectal problem in my snail

[sky]

Like a week ago I noticed this on my snail, I don't know what it is, could it be an organ that is being pushed out of him?
He recently recovered from a mantle collapse and a severe gut extrusion, dunno if this have anything to do with that.
So far I haven't seen any case like this on the internet so any help is appreciated.

[SuspiciousBagel]

Hello, I'm so, so sorry to have to tell you this but I've asked around and yes, what you're most likely seeing is the snail's organs coming up.

Mantle collapse and gut extrusion aren't actually curable and though the symptoms can seem to be gone, they will most often return and eventually kill the snail painfully anyway. If they're a wild caught snail chances are they're just at the end of their natural lifespan and it's their time to go.


Warning: Euthanasia Methods 

Quickly killing them by crushing swiftly under something heavy, or if you want to keep their shell soaking overnight in a 5% beer solution (or until completely unresponsive) and then putting them in boiling water (they will not feel this) in is what I'd advise you do to prevent any further suffering and pain for them

[daniele]

Snails have surprising recover abilities, and they can even regenerate themselves in many cases.. Also for my experience, many times I thought a snail was never going to make it, instead they easily did! I even currently have one living happily with only a third of her shell left and another one that was able to regenerate entirely an eyestalk.

I've never seen a case like this too, but when they feel that the situation is really critical and they are suffering too much, usually for what I have seen they will seal in and try a kind of hibernation as a last recovery attempt (since apparently the deep sleep has some healing properties); when they are hibernated, they already feel nothing, is like a self inducted coma..

In my opinion you should observe him and assist him, and maybe post more pics from different angles and some more informations like how old he is , how long ago he suffered the mantle collapse, if any other snail suffered it and so on.

[snaileyhammy]

Hi! I agree with Daniele. It could be their organs, but you never know. How is he doing today? I think you shouldn’t go straight to euthanasia, see what you can do and how you can help. I have seen cases where snails that were suffering severely made it out ok.

If you are ok with me asking, how bad was his mantle collapse?



I hope any of that helped, and I am deeply sorry!

[sky]

Hi, thanks for the responses and sorry for the late reply.
I've being watching my snail closely these days.

The night after I made the first post, I saw my snail didn't have the organ there anymore.
I was confused until I noticed this among his poop.



It seems the organ withered and it was expelled with the poop.

I have lots of questions right now
Did he "bit" it and took it out himself?
Did the organ just died and was just expelled?
What organ was that?

He's been doing his normal snail things these days, eating, crawling, absorbing water, sleeping upside down,
so he doesn't look sick or weak, and the organ doesn't seem so far to be important or vital.


This is a pic of the organ when it was smaller, also he already had the gut extrusion here though it was also smaller.



This is how the gut extrusion looked when it was the biggest



I don't have a pic of his mantle problem sadly.
He suffered it for 2 days like 2 weeks ago, it happened with the gut extrusion.

I also don't know his age, I found him in the street and took him before he could get stomped, it was 10 months ago.
He was like 3 cm long, now he's 8 cm. He's the only snail I have btw.

Just before the gut extrusion he had a swollen mouth while he was sleeping, it seems by reading all the other posts that is an indicator that a snail will suffer it.
I didn't really see anything else odd before the organ started showing though, mmm could the organ, mouth and mantle be connected? an infection or inflamation perhaps?


He's been fighting so much for his life that I couldn't just euthanize him... he's very strong.
Many people's first answer was to do that when I asked about his problems, and I understand is the most humane thing to do when is suffering and there's no solution... but we can see that snails can make it and have a normal life.
I'll keep watching him and helping him in any way I can.

Thanks all for the help, Me and Luis Felipe (his name lol) really appreciate it

I'll keep updating from time to time

[snaileyhammy]

Hello! It does look very strange, as to what it is I’m not totally sure. It could be an organ or it could be a regular poo. Do you have any better photos of it?


I am glad that things are getting a bit better! I’m also glad you gave him a chance, most people would just euthanize. I think we should try and help our snails as best as we can. I will see if I can find any information that can help you out.

I hope all goes well!

[snaileyhammy]

Just a few quick questions. What is his diet? And what kind of substrate do you keep in his tank?

[sky]

He was eating a mix of egg shells, water, flour and bread crumbs all grinded very thin like a video I saw recommended,
but recently I read bread could cause bloating and flour is not that good so I removed them.
I tried giving carrot and peas but he doesn't like them that much.
He's eating now sweet potato and pea plants that are growing in his house.
I don't know if the powdered egg shells are enough as calcium source though...

His house have soil my mother buy for her plants, I don't know the components and if its ok for him.

I really don't know much about snails, it seems I've been doing a bad job with him and maybe I'm the cause of his problems...
I'm learning more now so I can help him have a good life.

[SuspiciousBagel]

The diet is fine- you’re correct in thinking that bread isn’t great for them, I’ve also been told it caused bloating which makes sense as it increases in size when left in water, plus snails aren't really that good with eating complex foods not found in nature so cut out the flour as well and serve the calcium source by itself, separate from the food. I would also switch out potting soil for coco coir substrate which you can easily find online as a compact block which you submerge in water and as it absorbs it it will expand.

However, I’ve already said where I stand on this and though I know you guys don't share my opinion I still believe euthanasia is the best option for the snail. Chances are that organ (that’s not poop- wrong colour and texture) came out as a result of its internal organs getting messed up by the mantle collapse and if just missing a likely essential organ won’t kill the snail painfully within a short space of time then, as I’ve already mentioned, the mantle collapse (which is unhealable because it’s literally a torn muscle, which snails have a lifespan far to short to be able to repair completely if at all) or the extrusion coming back will eventually.

Snails aren’t able to talk to us and tell us what's going on internally nor are we able to see it- you have no idea what could be wrong with the snail but considering the multitude of problems its faced I doubt think its anything good. As responsible keepers we need to know when we to end a snail’s suffering.

I really doubt they will be able to recover and live normally but since I'm being outnumbered as far as my stand on this goes, I doubt you'll do it and I understand. Euthanasia is never an easy decision to come to. I can only tell you to please have some sense and know when this has gone too far and you need to do what's best for the snail's wellbeing.

[snaileyhammy]

What we are saying is, no one knows for sure if that was an organ. We don’t know enough to know if what is happening is really bad.

It’s good that you’re giving him sweet potatoes and everything now. Slowly working him into food that is better for him is probably going to be what you need to do, it will be hard because snails are pretty picky. It could have been what you fed him before that caused some of this, it’s hard to tell though. I would also recommend giving them some cuttlebone, it’s a better source of calcium.

For substrate you have a few options, you can use coconut fiber, soil from outdoors, etc. If you do you use dirt from outside, make sure you sterilize it first. Coconut fiber is the most common and the best I would say, it can be a bit dry though.

I’m guessing some of this is happening because of the substrate you were using and some other things, bacterial imbalance. Snails can have very abnormal looking poo and still be perfectly healthy. So that’s why I am unsure if it was an organ. It did appear as an organ protruding, then disappeared. Like I said just look over him every day, see if he is acting weak, or won’t eat, sleeps a lot, retracted a lot, dry, etc. See when the last time he pooped and ate. Also maybe try giving him a green tea bath. All this will help you find out if anything is seriously wrong with him, and help him heal. If he appears to be suffering or somethings not right, let someone know or do further inspection. You may want get some others thoughts on this.


I hope any of that helped. Remember that no one is perfect and we all make mistakes! So don’t be too hard on yourself.

[snaileyhammy]

Also, mantle collapse is curable, but requires a lot food. It’s hard to get your snail to eat when they are in that condition, so it is difficult.

[SuspiciousBagel]

Look, I'm really sorry, I don't want to argue here. But, mantle collapse is a degenerative issue that cannot be cured, be it by food, a shallow container, etc as I've already said. There are sources that claim it can, but really at best the symptom a person can observe- the mantle slipping outside of the shell- will be rid of temporarily. I am yet to find a case with substantial evidence of a snail with mantle collapse never having the symptom return but if you find something that contradicts that I'll of course have a look at it.

The whole reason mantle collapse is so fatal is because the mantle is connected to the respiratory system and the whole attachment of the shell to the mantle is what allows their delicate lungs to work, so if that attachment fails, the lung capacity is severely compromised, no matter how mild it may look, and the lungs will eventually fail as the symptom keeps returning. You can imagine how uncomfortable this is for the snail as it worsens, even if you can't see it. This is why snails which have displayed slipping mantles need to be euthanised.

And I just realised- in addition to it being the wrong colour and texture, that can't be poo as its coming out the breathing hole. I'm aware its possible in theory for poo to get in there but a snail would close up the breathing hole if it felt something going in, there's no way it would allow an object that big to go in there without reacting somehow to prevent it, plus a poo that strange looking and that long to also be coming out of the breathing hole seems like too much of a coincidence. 

[morningcoffee]

Jul 9, 2021 16:39:52 GMT SuspiciousBagel said:

And I just realised- in addition to it being the wrong colour and texture, that can't be poo as its coming out the breathing hole. I'm aware its possible in theory for poo to get in there but a snail would close up the breathing hole if it felt something going in, there's no way it would allow an object that big to go in there without reacting somehow to prevent it, plus a poo that strange looking and that long to also be coming out of the breathing hole seems like too much of a coincidence. 

In snails, the anus opening is inside the mantle cavity and poop is then expelled through the breathing hole, so it would in fact be perfectly normal for poop to come out there.
I am not convinced that what's in the picture is poop, though.

Jul 9, 2021 14:52:09 GMT snaileyhammy said:

Also, mantle collapse is curable, but requires a lot food. It’s hard to get your snail to eat when they are in that condition, so it is difficult.

I have never previously heard that mantle collapse is curable with food. Is there any source on this?

[SuspiciousBagel]

Jul 9, 2021 16:59:21 GMT morningcoffee said:

To my knowledge the breathing hole and anus are separate things, as you can see on this diagram. I really apologise if I'm wrong though!

[morningcoffee]

Jul 9, 2021 17:36:36 GMT SuspiciousBagel said:

To my knowledge the breathing hole and anus are separate things, as you can see on this diagram. I really apologise if I'm wrong though!

Yes, they are separate things. The anus opens inside the mantle cavity for the snail to defecate. Poop then leaves the mantle cavity via the breathing hole.

[SuspiciousBagel]

I think I misunderstood what you initially said- but i looked it up and youre correct about poo exiting through the breathing hole. My mistake, I swear I've been told otherwise before I should've checked before I stated it as a fact! Thanks for correcting me though!

[snaileyhammy]

Jul 9, 2021 16:59:21 GMT morningcoffee said:

Jul 9, 2021 16:39:52 GMT SuspiciousBagel said:

And I just realised- in addition to it being the wrong colour and texture, that can't be poo as its coming out the breathing hole. I'm aware its possible in theory for poo to get in there but a snail would close up the breathing hole if it felt something going in, there's no way it would allow an object that big to go in there without reacting somehow to prevent it, plus a poo that strange looking and that long to also be coming out of the breathing hole seems like too much of a coincidence. 

In snails, the anus opening is inside the mantle cavity and poop is then expelled through the breathing hole, so it would in fact be perfectly normal for poop to come out there.
I am not convinced that what's in the picture is poop, though.

Jul 9, 2021 14:52:09 GMT snaileyhammy said:

Also, mantle collapse is curable, but requires a lot food. It’s hard to get your snail to eat when they are in that condition, so it is difficult.

I have never previously heard that mantle collapse is curable with food. Is there any source on this?

I guess I didn’t phrase that correctly, oops sorry. I guess I just meant that snails don’t usually heal from mantle collapse because they don’t want to eat, etc.