Black list ?

[xyz]

I gather that there is no Black list as such here, and was wondering what the reason was ? I think it would be a good idea and could offer some protection against would be scammers etc. We ( the public ) can compare black list names with other sites and then make an informed decision to deal with a particular person or not.

[copigeon]

There is no black list as this site was (to my knowledge) never intended as a place to flight personal battles over personal transactions.
Its a place to share information, experiences, and hopefully increase the available knowlegde base for the hobby.

Personal transactions, personal arguments should be dealt with off board. Not dragged here for public disposal.

[rosanna123]

i totally agree with you copigeon, peoples names get dragged through the mud when there is a black listed section, even when they have done nothing wrong

[crossless]

Blacklist is great idea so people who order from other coutries would know who from buy. Because sadly people scam more easily people that like abroad because it's harder to get caught? I think it's harder to trace money where it goes if it goes through different coutries systems etc.

We in my country want that everyone gets snails only from trusted people, so I usually send to person other broads blacklist so they can make sure before giving money seller that they get more likely their snails. If they would not otherwise find any blacklist..

I haven't seen ever on blacklist people that would not have really have reason to be there so people really look from different places proof from bad selling behaviour etc before adding anyone to list so no one will be not put there with out reason. It's different to bully people than really have reason to say people avoid some one if seller takes just money and don't send snails etc. what ever wrong that blacklisted person is doing.

[ness]

Yes. I see both sides.

Copigeon's view is understandable, it's not pleasent moderating such arguments, and a snail forum SHOULD be a place to share knowledge, not have arguments, I agree. Moderators shouldn't have to spend their time going through other people's transactions trying to work out what has gone wrong and if any deliberate scam was intended.

BUT blacklists that are put in place by moderators AFTER they have definite proof of DELIBERATE wrong-doings are very helpful to everyone who does not wish to fall victim of some trader who deliberately misleads/lies etc, and if these people are allowed to carry on trading on forums then arguments are going to be inevitable, whether there's a blacklist section or not. I think the key is proof, and certainly people get very frustrated when a known scammer is allowed to keep trading.

It's a tough decision to make with regards how far to go along these lines, and each forum has their own rules and ways of dealing with things. I certainly wouldn't wish to see witch-hunts, or people being slated over little mistakes that any trader could make.

At the end of the day, no matter which route a forum goes down with regards dealing with bad traders, it's a rather sad and sorry thing that these com-artists choose to blight our hobby!

[kanin]

Honestly, thoose few times we've had personal disputes about deals going wrong turned into threads they've just ended with new or temporary members badmouthing experienced and honest breeders. Breeders who've in many cases spent a lot of time improving this site aswell as helping others with their problems. I dont think i have to remind anyone that in one particular case this ended in a really engaged member of this community vowing to never log on here or to sell a snail again.

[ness]

But generally not when moderators don't let threads go too far, lock threads, or investigated things behind the scenes and then place their black-lists on the forum themselves.

It's just a case of whether or not a forum wishes to go dopwn that route at all, and every forum has their own view on it. At the end of the day each forum will decide based upon what it views to be right.

[ade]

In the face of undisputed proof why would someone not act on the truth?

[coyote]

As a mod, personally I do not want to have to deal with transaction disputes, and I am glad I don't have to on this site.

[Bumblebee]

The idea with a black list, is good, but it can come so much bad from it... As it has been said, there could be alot of ''backstabbing''.
Like I remember from a swedish reptile forum, someone had bought a snake I think it was, and the snake didn't eat at her place, and she kept claiming that it was the seller that somehow had mistreated the snake, when it most likely was her own fault since she refused to write down the conditions she kept the snake in, and she just kept on and blaming and blaming the seller.

A black list could although work if the people that make posts about a seller/buyer had tried to be in contact with them and tried to find out what went wrong. Like a snail that arrived damaged, it dosnt HAVE to mean it was the sellers fault, or delayed payment dosn't have to mean that the buyer is trying to scam the seller and so on.
Could also be an idea if the posts where to be approved before they went public, so that moderators could moderate the post a bit in case they are a bit too harsh.

Or maybe make the opposite of a black list, and a good credit list, where you only list the good things with a buyer/seller.

It is indeed a difficult subject this with black lists, since there are always two sides of the story. Did the seller lie? or was it the buyer?

[coyote]

Sometimes it is not always purely black and white. That makes it very difficult to handle, especially as a mod who, ideally, should be unbiased.

[jacky230766]

i understand the blacklisting of bad sellers but i noticed that someone on here has said that another member is buying and selling for a profit,and then i noticed that the person replied that she'd been black listed on another site, i am assuming that this is why the person was black listed ,if this is true ,am i wrong for being totally confused as i don't really see that this is a problem at all, i don't buy any of my snails direct i get a friend to do it for me,i tell her that i want some more she tells me whats available and what they look like and how to keep them if they differ from what i have in any way,and she does the buying i sometimes give her afew quid extra for helping has i'm totally usless .but am now worried that if a person has been blacklisted for doing what my friend does for me ,they might get into trouble and i don't want that,as you can see i'm rather confused

[crossless]

I understand if friend buys for other or there is group many people ordering once and when snails arrive to first person who makes sure ordering and money issues go right. Then when snail arrive person don't straight away send them to next person, good person let them rest for while before sending again like to 1 to 2week atleast. Make sure every snails is functions right and then send them to owners that will give snail permanent home.

I just have heard to profit makers would send same snail as they arrive on same week again to some person when bad person sends it to someone who from he/she gets extra money. I think it's bit too much for snail go two times in short time through post again. And you can't be too sure are snails healthy if they can't rest between posting again and made sure they have eaten food etc. Two totally different things.

[lee2211]

No. What the problem is, not telling the seller, and then them being sold to somone who you wont be able to get into contact with. Also this person was selling Tigers on about a week after recieving them, this could kill the snail!

What you've got going on is not a problem, simply because it's innocent, and your friend just doing you a convienence. It's your choice to give the extra money, but to charge someone else silly money for something especially when they don't know what it's worth or what you payed for it. It's like what antique sellers do, it's conning people.
But it goes to far when the well being of the snail is at risk.

[coyote]

It's true that an unscrupulous seller might try to scam people, and also that an unreasonable buyer might want to ruin a seller's reputation for no good reason. I don't know what the answer is other than to communicate with each other as clearly as possible about exactly what is expected -- don't assume the other party knows what to expect. (That means that both sellers and buyers should respond to questions in a timely manner.) Sometimes that can help identify a potential problem and the transaction can be called off prior to completion.

Also, if you said you're going to do something, do it -- send the snails when you said you would, pay the seller when you said you would, and if something comes up that interferes with that, communicate with the other person and let them know that the snails or the payment needs to be delayed, and for how long. Otherwise, follow through.

I feel that good communication is key to avoiding winding up on someone's Do Not Buy From / Do Not Sell To list, because most people are reasonable and are willing to accommodate you if you just let them know when something unavoidable comes up.

[Paul]

You would not believe the amount of time it takes to arbitrate disputes between people and I don't think I'd ever feel confident anything was proven one way or another.

I don't believe forums are the right place to do it for the reasons people have already mentioned. No-one would want to be a mod!

However, if someone felt strongly about it, they could easily start a website that publishes a black list - if they dare! I think what you'd find is that people who don't deserve a listing would end up on it, and then you'd have to allow them a recourse etc. etc. ad nauseam.

The other alternative is that if you've had a really bad experience, blog about it personally and let it be indexed by search engines. Anyone buying could simply search for the person they're thinking of buying from and then they'd see it.

I don't want the board to be seen as some sort of regulator that makes people believe their own due diligence isn't required. You should always do a bit of digging.

[aerliss]

The other alternative is that if you've had a really bad experience, blog about it personally and let it be indexed by search engines. Anyone buying could simply search for the person they're thinking of buying from and then they'd see it.

Seconded.

While on the face of it, a black list sounds like a good idea, it is open to much abuse and an awful lot of work for the people running it. I don't think any of us want to see the arguments that would arise.

[coyote]

I think blogging about it is a better way to go, rather than have an on-site black list.