Calcium and Vitamin D3

[Val]

I was reading in my bird book that no matter how much cuttlefish or other forms of calcium you give to a bird it CANNOT convert the calcium for its body to use without vitamin D3. The most natural way for the bird to get D3 is sunshine, but if the bird is kept indoors and out of sunshine then D3 must be given orally. Well, I was just wondering if the same applied to snails and whether anyone else has thought about this. If the snails aren't getting D3 and they do in fact need it, then new shell growth is going to be poor.

Val

[Paul]

Yeah, there's threads where it has been discussed. The trouble is that snails avoid sunlight but probably do get a little UV, simply because they will still get it during cloud cover or dawn/dusk.

The difference here is that snails require massive amounts of calcium carbonate for shell building so their absorption of calcium surely must be more efficient and perhaps different. I think phosphorus is more important but there's no denying that some Vitamin D is likely to be important. I add multi-vit to food to supplement this after I read Ceiron succeeded in rectifying a bad shell with multi-vit. I was thinking of investing in low-power UV also, but I read that fulica quickly die when exposed to the sun. Whether this is through dessication or harmful UV is anyone's guess. I still intend to do it, but that's why I want low-power, perhaps 1/3 of full sun (800-1000 lumens/sq.foot) and with plenty of places to shelter.

I'm gonna send another letter to some malacologists that won't get answered

[LisaLQ]

We were on about this on the top board (my one about liquid calcium). I know they cant get vitamin d because sunlight cant get through plastic or glass (well, whichever part is important - I'm no good with science!).

I'm trying mine on liquid calcium, but might look into which foods carry vitamin d too. Kathy says it's in margarine but methinks that's not in the snail friendly diet

[LisaLQ]

Foods that do contain the vitamin include fortified milk, dark green leafy vegetables, eggs, fish liver oils, butter, tuna and salmon.

So I assume spinach and kale would be good ideas? Shame my snails hate spinach...

[ceiron]

nooooooooooooooooooooooo

spinach and kale contains high amounts of something, cant remember its name that blocks calcium uptake, good in small quanties but not in large.

as or d3 it can be synthesised but not very effectively without uvb, i am not sure if snails ahve a different method of doing this.

but a low powered reptile uv tube surrounded by mesh may help.

[sezzy5889]

what about cabbage? thats a dark green

[ceiron]

i id post an article about it before, lemme see if i can find it.

[ceiron]

Oxalic Acids

Oxalates and Oxalic Acids are in almost all foods, especially vegetables, fruits and greens. Many times, discussions on high oxalates only confuses people more than they were. I will try to keep this simple and easy to understand.

Oxalates:

WHAT ARE THEY? Simply put, they are acids called Oxalic acids that occur naturally in many, many foods. Oxalic acid may combine with other minerals such as calcium, iron, sodium, magnesium or potassium and form less soluble salts that are known as OXALATES. Oxalates are also naturally in plants.

HOW DO THEY WORK? Oxalic acids bind with needed nutrients and pretty much makes the needed nutrients inaccessible to the body. The main nutrient that seems to be depleted is calcium.

CAN THEY DO DAMAGE? When fed in large amounts for periods of time, Yes. OXALIC ACID is a strong acid and in LARGE amounts can be fatal. OXALATES (remember they are formed from the Oxalic acids) can form little crystals that don't dissolve. These crystals have very sharp edges which can irritate the digestive organs (stomach and kidney)and lead to kidney stones.

Now...why would we feed these foods to our Iguana? As I said, they occur in almost all foods. The key to preventing problems is a diet that has a vast variety of healthy foods. Not all foods have the same amount of oxalates in them. Spinach is one of the highest. Its also a food that we recommend not feeding. When you feed a HUGE variety of foods, keeping the amount of high oxalate foods lower (see sample diet pages) in your iguanas diet, you run less risk of ever having a problem with oxalates and your iguana. If your iguana is fed foods such as spinach, chard,beet greens, parsley and other high oxalate foods only, then you run a very high chance that your iguana will suffer from kidney problems and MBD.(Remember, the oxalates bind with the calcium, and make it not usable.)

HOW DOES IT REMOVE CALCIUM? Oxalates don't remove calcium from the iguana. What they do is bind with the calcium in that food only. Using spinach as an example...Calcium is very high in spinach, but so is the oxalates. What happens is, the oxalates tie together the calcium in the spinach which doesn't allow the iguana to get the calcium from the spinach. The oxalates pass through the iguana, possibly staying in the kidneys. (remember, the crystals the oxalates form?)

As with all living creatures, a variety in the diet is essential!!! This cannot be stressed enough in the diet of iguanas.

Below are some links to more information about Oxalic Acids.

Vegetable Oxalic acid (g/100 g)

Parsley 1.70
Chives 1.48
Purslane 1.31
Cassava 1.26
Amaranth 1.09
Spinach 0.97
Beet leaves 0.61
Carrot 0.50
Radish 0.48
Collards 0.45
Beans, snap 0.36
Brussels sprouts 0.36
Garlic 0.36
Lettuce 0.33
Watercress 0.31
Sweet potato 0.24
Turnip 0.21
Chicory 0.21
Broccoli 0.19
Celery 0.19
Eggplant 0.19
Cauliflower 0.15
Asparagus 0.13
Endive 0.11
Cabbage 0.10
Tomato 0.05
Pea 0.05
Turnip greens 0.05
Potato 0.05
Onion 0.05
Okra 0.05
Pepper 0.04
Parsnip 0.04
Rutabaga 0.03
Squash 0.02
Kale 0.02
Cucumbers 0.02
Corn, sweet 0.01
Coriander 0.01

regards
ceiron

thanks to - www.iguanaden.com/diet/oxalic.htm and www.vegsource.com/articles/harris_kidney_stones.htm

[LisaLQ]

Well kale then, it seems to have a relatively low amount compared to the others. We use kale a lot for our rats - when we can find it, it's like gold dust in supermarkets *lol*

[apple]

Very interesting!
Excellent thread.
But, when I tried to see images on Yahoo I couldn´t find exactly what kale is, because it shows different plants.
Does anyone knows it´s scientific name?

[apple]

I already found that it´s Brassica napus var. pabularia . lol
I guess that yeast is also good for snails to use calcium in it´s growth.

* Tread is locked, because there's too many same named treads around here about calsium. Let's write here next time we have some question or something else to say.. -> petsnails.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=feeding&action=display&thread=8421 - CroSSLeSS *