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Post by eric2 on Dec 3, 2007 20:41:04 GMT
i am willing to help in anyway that i can
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Dec 3, 2007 21:21:09 GMT
Whoa, there's a scary thought. ;D
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apple
Archachatina degneri
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Post by apple on Dec 3, 2007 23:29:05 GMT
There are «helix shell type» snails of the same size of some Achatina ( more than 10 cm), in Madagascar and Thailand for example.
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Post by manxminx on Dec 4, 2007 11:14:36 GMT
Can I ask, is this proposed Association specifically concerned with Land Snails, or are Marine Snails included as well?
Also, I feel we need to send out emails to various organisations/websites to see if they are interested in supporting the idea of an international association. It's also important to point out that such an association would not be in competition with existing organisations/websites, it would complement and support them.
Also, is it possible for us all to agree to the proposed aims (which personally I think are excellent!):
oh, one last question. I presume that the organisation as proposed would be a non-profit making (and no subscription fees) Internet based organisation?
Ali.
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Post by Vida on Dec 4, 2007 13:26:06 GMT
I can only give my opinion.
I would seperate the Association's aims in three:
1) Scientific
(Obtaining information, collaborating with universities etc...)
2) Cultural
(Competitions, information to general public, publicity etc...)
3) Welfare
(Pet shops, Brixton market, petitions etc...)
I think the Association should be non-profit and should not require subscriptions at present. (Although the door should be kept open to ask for donations or entrance fees etc.... in case of cultural events.)
I also think that it should be Internet based. (Ali, I look forward to hearing back from you on this one.)
And of course, I would include marine snails too.
Hope this answers everything.
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 4, 2007 15:59:40 GMT
Dear Arno, please don't take my last proposal , "giant Helix breeding" as one of the main aims of the Association ; I intend, it could be just one, among other aims, as our snail rearing/studying/breeding would be a multi-faced task, every single member could even dedicate to some peculiar goals, rather than others, all within the pursuing of a major general interest. As to "fancy maxi-Helix" I suggested, I understand well, that your disliking could just come from the almost unavoidable likening of amatorial/scientific snail keeping, to a rather "food-market-minded" one, that really I would dislike, too ! ...But even in a marginal, and somewhat "trivial" goal as the above said one, I believe we could find three good enough motivations: 1)raising general interest, due some "spectacular" results -we must not forget that the large public, even non -devoted snails lovers, are initially attracted to the "snail world" by Achatinas, just by the astounding size of the latter... 2)the "satisfaction" -someone could feel, someone not, of course-, of having been able to get "something new" from our own efforts, besides the "pleasure" -this too, a subjective matter- to care after a "beautiful" maxi-snail; 3)the potential scientific significance, in adscertaining by means of (unharmful) experiments, what are the "genetic capabilities" of a given species, that is, what it "could" evolve in and to what extent, due the right selective pressure, and what genetical traits are involved in that; as Apple added, there are some giant Helix-relative in the tropics, near 10cm across; if getting by selective breeding a similar sized Helix pomatia, genetists could verify, wether the breeder has (unknowingly) acted by "turning on" the same latent genes, that are fully expressed today in its "natural" giant relatives, or a totally different genetic pattern has been involved and caused the size to increase... An the same would be true, not only for "size" of course, but for each other discernible morphological-behavioral trait! For example, "fancy" mini-dogs, whose breeds were obtained almost independently along the times, revealed in recent studies, to share a common genetical feature, arisen several times autonomously in breeding, and responsible, not only for their smaller size, but even for a different pathway to utilize insulin, that results, besides, in their greatly increased longevity compared with "large" dog breeds... So, even if a single breeding goal is pursued just for "fancy" or fun, it could go well beyond the initial purpose! I'm convinced, that even the more distant approaches, as the "scientific" and the "funny" ones, could be far more compatible, and useful each other, than it can be supposed.. And I believe, we should "help" professionals to remember that: most of us, after all, are "amatorial" snail keepers, and I'm very afraid that "snails-keeping", as well as any other unusual "pet-keeping", is just perceived as pointless or even "childish" by most of the people, sadly uncapable to feel their fascination, and to understand how intersting these "pets" can be; still worst, even "professionals" could be hampered by the very same prejudice, that has not reasons to be, as any "costructive" deed in this field, couldn't but add a bit of new knowledge, if they are willing to search for it! Excuse me for really too long digression, I would simply mean, that even the less "serious" enterprises in this field, could be eventually turned in some meaningful... And surely I agree with you, about what the main aims should be! fabrizio
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Arno
Archachatina puylaerti
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Post by Arno on Dec 4, 2007 18:41:51 GMT
I think Vida's post was a very good one and agree with all she said. Fabrizio,thank you for taking the time and effort to write such a long reply.I know you're right in saying there should be room for breeding programs in new directions. Fortunately I know quite a few people,who are not snailkeepers but still show an interest in my snails. It would be very useful for professional people to know that there are people like us who have live examples of animals that they are studying.
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apple
Archachatina degneri
Posts: 1,078
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Post by apple on Dec 4, 2007 20:17:35 GMT
I can only give my opinion. I would seperate the Association's aims in three: 1) Scientific (Obtaining information, collaborating with universities etc...) 2) Cultural (Competitions, information to general public, publicity etc...) 3) Welfare (Pet shops, Brixton market, petitions etc...) I think the Association should be non-profit and should not require subscriptions at present. (Although the door should be kept open to ask for donations or entrance fees etc.... in case of cultural events.) I also think that it should be Internet based. (Ali, I look forward to hearing back from you on this one.) And of course, I would include marine snails too. Hope this answers everything. Bravo, bravissimo!! ;D ;D I agree 100%.
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Dec 4, 2007 20:24:40 GMT
I hope that the scientific side of study would help shed light on snail illnesses and diseases. A lot of what goes wrong with snails has no clear cause; we're told "Well, that happens, we don't know why, we don't know what to do about it." There could be a whole family of viruses or other organisms that cause snail illness. Perhaps some of them are involved in gut extrusion or deep retraction? It would be good for snail keepers to have a better idea of why something is going wrong when problems arise.
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 4, 2007 23:44:37 GMT
I fully quote Coyote, it's true, what is really known about snail viruses, and other pathogens? While knowing more about this topic could be a practical advantage for us keeper, so often dismayed by uncomprehensible demises of our "pets", it could even disclose a new field to researchers; it could be difficult and somewhat unpractical, but we could make agreements and send them sample of our snails, that were dead "for unknown reasons"...
As to Vida, I too would agree with her proposal, of the three main branches of interest within the Association, and try to let them free of charge, as long as it could be possible (better however even a small charge, as it is for PSG, rather than let die an Association at all!) I see, Arno, you fundamentally agree with me, that it's important to make professional aware, of the potential (reciprocal) utility and support we could represent, even in the "humble"(?) task of amatorials! -(And I'm happy Arno, that you find there are even not directly concerned people, that appreciate anyhow pet snails! Yet I see you live in The Netherlands, much more advanced than Italy I do live in, upon all respects... and "pet-culture" is a significative one among them; I believe it's not by chance, that there is a much more advanced terrarium/aquarium awareness over there, while in my "stagnant" and rather necrotic country, the same are almost agonizing!)
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Post by Vida on Dec 5, 2007 11:05:18 GMT
It looks as though we are basically agreed on what we want, so I think we can now go about organising the different tasks.
Ali, any news yet?
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 6, 2007 17:23:11 GMT
Hi all, Excuse me for the "scattered" way my proposals are appearing here, but there is another important point I recommend we should stick to, if willing to propose ourselves as useful and cooperative with academical world: we should take " field records" of our snails as long as possible, in example, if they are wild collected (or offsprings from wild-collected specimes), we should record and be able to specify the exact location, where collection toke place. Many species are highly widespreaded through whole Europe (and often beyond), yet they are well differentiated in myriads of "local populatios", whose external features are often clearly recognizable, and still deeper differences would emerge in their DNA, if ever some researchers would analyze it. And I'm not intending, of course, that you can't pair and hybridize a Cepaea nemoralis from UK, with another, different looking Cepaea nemoralis from Italy (what I'm just intending to do, besides all); only, I recommend to take records of each "operation", to draw out a sort of "pedigree" of our snails, even if they were obtaining by inbreeding; that would make much more meaningful, any research subsequently carried upon them. By the way, the same principle is well established in Botanics with wild plants, and Botanical Gardens better welcome plants or seeds whose "origin" is known, rather than the same species; but LACKING origin documentatios!
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Dec 6, 2007 20:48:36 GMT
in example, if they are wild collected (or offsprings from wild-collected specimes), we should record and be able to specify the exact location, where collection toke place. See here for more about documenting information about wild-caught specimens, including how to document location.
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Arno
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Post by Arno on Dec 6, 2007 21:29:33 GMT
It looks as though we are basically agreed on what we want, so I think we can now go about organising the different tasks. Ali, any news yet? here's Apple's suggestion which I think we can go ahead with now: I«Maybe we first should know which species each one has, what each one has been doing on snails, ...» ;D It probably is a good idea to do this in a separate thread.....
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Post by Vida on Dec 6, 2007 22:19:12 GMT
Fine by me.
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Post by ness on Dec 6, 2007 23:50:54 GMT
Sorry to side-track, just to let you a,, know I'm still looking forward to getting involved, I've just had a very busy week.
Thanks xx ;D
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 7, 2007 0:12:41 GMT
I look forward for you being involved, as soon as you have time again!
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 7, 2007 0:26:49 GMT
Thank you Coyote for the page, about location suggestions. And at the same website, I found this interesting page too, snailstales.blogspot.com/2007/06/mysterious-snails-of-potomac.html#comment-c2920884387135236042it shows a really beautiful variation of "common" Cipangopaludina, some "carenate" shells; "carination" is a "typical" feature of some species, along many families, and yet it can re-appear in a taxon, that usually haven't got it. This is a good example of what I would mean before; besides breeding/selecting some beautiful "strains" from "common" species, these could be analyzed to find out, if their "new" traits are elicited from the same genes, that determine them in sopecies that "normally" possess them... (This could be rather OT, but I would take just as a good -and beautiful- example!) fabrizio
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Post by manxminx on Dec 10, 2007 18:04:30 GMT
Umm . . . I've been told by Leah there's already an International Snail Society - it's called the International Gastropod Society. www.petsnails.co.uk/IGS/The thread about it is here: International Gastropod Society AimsLeah wrote (in another thread) : Unfortunately, it appears that nothing is happening about it. Why not Leah? As Arno said: I tend to agree. It's a great pity that the likes of Paul and Leah let it die. If they are no longer interested in such a society then they should accept that other people are, and support those people rather than criticising. Ali.
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Post by Vida on Dec 10, 2007 21:17:51 GMT
Yes, when I first suggested this, I was pointed to the thread. But as has been pointed out several times, that society died out and it is necessary to start from the beginning again. I think there are enough of us interested in different aspects to try at least.
I truly hope I have not upset anyone with this. And I apologise if I have.
Ali, I am interested in your news in particular to get this started whenever you are ready. Thanks so much.
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Arno
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Post by Arno on Dec 10, 2007 22:22:36 GMT
Umm . . . I've been told by Leah there's already an International Snail Society - it's called the International Gastropod Society. www.petsnails.co.uk/IGS/The thread about it is here: International Gastropod Society AimsLeah wrote (in another thread) : Unfortunately, it appears that nothing is happening about it. Why not Leah? As Arno said: I tend to agree. It's a great pity that the likes of Paul and Leah let it die. If they are no longer interested in such a society then they should accept that other people are, and support those people rather than criticising. Ali. I think you're being much too harsh on Paul and Leah as both of them are not to blame for the lack of interest in the past. Basically all this has already been discussed in this thread,and now we are trying to get it running again.Whether it's called the IGS or the ISA is not really that important in my opinion.
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Post by fabrizio on Dec 11, 2007 16:14:42 GMT
I believe they quitted, just because becoming discouraged by feeling not enough interested people around that; what is absolutely needed, I think, is to feel that at least a "critical mass" of interested and concerned peoples is just achieved, and then it becomes possible to begin to plan for actual enterprises;now some are gathering around this idea again, if we keep to it, perhaps it could be started again and with a better fate!
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Post by manxminx on Dec 12, 2007 18:47:17 GMT
I've sent you a pm about this, and the reasons why I'm seeing red at the moment.
On a positive note, my offer has been very well received by everyone else. I'll get back to yous all as time allows.
Ali.
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Post by eric2 on Dec 12, 2007 21:14:21 GMT
do you think it would be a good idea to have like a breeders list of what they are currently breeding/trying to breed and a notes section to help other poeple who are keeping species not often bred
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Arno
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Posts: 1,493
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Post by Arno on Dec 12, 2007 22:03:50 GMT
I think that's a great idea........
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