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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 13, 2005 14:59:23 GMT
One of the German guys i sent tigers to has just posted a message on Cybersnail saying that his girlfriend is a veterinary nurse and has looked at some snail poo under the microscope and found loads of Larvea of some kind. I'm not sure yet if its the Brixton tigers poo or one of his other snails.
What do you guys think about this, how can we follow this up? Is it worth getting the larvea checked out somewhere??
Eric, did you get round to sending that parasitic worm off to Morgan?
Anjie,x.
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Post by Paul on Jul 13, 2005 15:07:51 GMT
I think it is worth getting them checked to at least find out what family of parasite they are from. That'll tell us what risk they pose to us and other snails. As for sorting the problem, I'm stumped. Aside from trying natural herbs I have no idea what to try. As I've said before, if the snail was really suffering I'd consider some de-worming tablets but as they usually exploit the biological differences between worms and mammals I imagine they would be harmful.
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Post by Paul on Jul 13, 2005 15:14:19 GMT
I think from this enormous batch of margie and tigers you got Anjie, there won't be much need to get wild-caught snails from now on (well unless an exotic species comes up). Someone has to be a pioneer, don't they?!
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 13, 2005 15:38:13 GMT
Yep, i've kind of flooded the market for Margies lol! But i've still got people willing to give homes to Tigers, so if there's some there to save - i'll save em.
Anjie,x.
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Post by Paul on Jul 13, 2005 15:53:50 GMT
I don't think it would be difficult, you'd just grind it up and mix with hemp or porridge I imagine.
Anjie, what snails do you have left for rehoming now then?
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 13, 2005 16:01:28 GMT
I only have a couple of big tigers that are on the road to recovery and are getting some TLC. I had to let a lot of people down who wanted tigers as i just didn't have enough to go round. All the margies have gone except one biggie, but i am going to try and get a couple more for a few people who didn''t get any.
I'm not sure there is going to be any more tigers there but i want to try one last time for my own peace of mind.
Anjie,x.
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Post by Paul on Jul 13, 2005 16:06:13 GMT
You must be a legend in the snail population of Europe by now! lol
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 13, 2005 16:21:43 GMT
Oh stop it lol. Its made a lot of people happy, and saved lots of snails from the dinner table . I hope thats a good thing. I know some people may think that i am lining the pockets of the people wha are selling them for food but.........it stops me sleeping at night, thinking about snails in a basket for weeks on end with no food and water and thats as far as i can think. It churns my stomach up! I've always been the same, ask my mum lol. There were things that i was never allowed to watch as a child and they included Lassie, Wildlife programmes and any war scenes where horses acted getting shot! or any tv programme where an animal gets killed. I can still hear myself screaming at my mum after watching a Buffalo or a deer or whatever getting killed and eaten by a tiger or a cheater 'Mum, The camera man is there, filming this - why doesn't he SAVE IT'. WMKL. I've grown up since then (i think) but it still makes my blood boil when i hear of or see people mistreating things that can't fight back! Anjie,x.
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Post by eric2 on Jul 13, 2005 17:28:27 GMT
hi Yep i sent it to her, did she get it?
eric
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 13, 2005 19:26:48 GMT
i don't know luvvy, i haven't heard anything yet.
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Emma
Achatina achatina
Posts: 98
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Post by Emma on Jul 13, 2005 23:38:35 GMT
This talk on the subject of gross parasites made me think I would draw to attention the plight of my snails About 5 months ago I bought 3 baby margies off a certain site. Thinking they were captive breed (babies) and provided by a "responsible and caring" breeder, i thought there was no harm in adding these little snails to my fulica's home. I had my fulica since last october, so i knew they werent infested with anything. Infact id never seen a single parasite on them. This is why i am certain about the parasites coming from the margies. about a month later I started to observe they revolting little parasites which seemed to live on snail poo and discarded food. My first reaction was "yuk!" these werent ur regular mites, these things are gross! They have a round, orb shaped bodies and tiny legs. The nearest thing to their shape would be a tick thou im pretty sure they are not ticks. Its just the proportionally large abdomens remind me off ticks. tHEY are whitish/transparent in colour. I now have to keep all my infected snails away from the others which is a major pain. I also have to clean them out ALOT. and bath them weekly. If i slip.. the nasty little buggers come back unrelentingly. My thinking is that these beasts have a cycle which initiates in the snail's body and then continues outside the body,, this is why it took a while before the pests became visable in the soil, dung and food. I imagine they develop in the digestive system on the snail and continue their lives outside the snail, eggs are laid and reingested. .. vicious circle... even if i remove the adults from the soil there would be young ones in the snail. Im am not an entomologist so i may be completely wrong, but i think its likely that there is a cycle ocuring here. if anyone has any better suggestions.. let me know. Its extremly frustrating cuz I now have 7 tanks which could be 4 or 5 if it was not for the infected snails. . I have also lost some hatchling fulica as a result of this. i doubt their bodies are strong enough to survive. Although the larger snails seem O.k their growth rate seems affected. I talked to paul about this a while ago i think . Ive been keeping my eye on the whole process trying to make sense of it. Its horrible, gross and not healthy for the snails affected
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Post by Paul on Jul 14, 2005 4:57:18 GMT
The best thing to do is bung some of these nasties in a tub and send them to Morgan or someone else who can help us get them to an entomologist. It's quite possible we could take them to a university that has a biology and parasite division. I know Manchester Uni does so I'll make some enquiries. I know your at Uni so see if yours do anything similar and just ask. They'll be able to photograph it properly for identification.
I've been looking into all these parasites and it makes depressing reading. I don't think we can reason it out until we know what they are. although I agree in your case it seems cyclic. Perhaps you'll eventually rid them of the things. It'd be good to see if we can find a natural predator for them. That would help to minimize reinfection. There is probably a beetle etc that would love to get stuck into them.
But at the moment they could be any manner of things. Once we know what they are we'll at least know what we're up against. The good thing is that so far they are all visible to the naked eye. Apart from these new ones mentioned by Sebastian on cybersnail. He's not answered my question about whether he could see them without the aid of a microscope yet.
The worrying ones seem to be the really small ones, where you're likely to come into contact with them without knowing. Even if they don't pose any risk you can't monitor the snail's infection.
Garlic is an excellent anti-parasitic apparently. But how do we get them to eat it. Well, I observed some Cornu aspersum grazing on an onion I have growing outside. Most unusual and although they didn't eat loads they ate some so hope is not lost. Garlic is actually a natural pesticide, it'll kill aphids etc. And there are others.
There is also the other method, boosting the immune system to force the parasite out or into suspended animation. A lot of parasitology treatment seems to be boosting the bodies immune system to help limit infection.
Why not crush some garlic into a liquid, and the next time you see these things, try spraying or dropping it on to them to see if it kills them? It would indicate a chance of it working. Also try the same with vinegar. I noticed the soil mites are killed by vinegar, even at 50% vinegar/50% water. Snails can tolerate rotting food that does turn vinegary. Perhaps natural cider vinegar mixed with porridge or something may help.
If either does the job of killing the bugs you could test the safety by putting the tiniest drop on the skin. If it reacts badly you could simply wash it off and no harm is done. The snail will produce thick mucus in reaction if it harms it in any way. It still doesn't guarantee safety and you've still got to get the snail to eat it but if a snail is suffering it could help. You can buy dried garlic which may be easier to get the snail to eat it.
At the end of the day, someone has to be brave enough to try it.
To try and slew more of the bugs from the snail you also want something that helps clean the digestive tract. There are probably many things, like brown rice but hemp is an idea because:
"The outer shell is a form of insoluble fibre, which, when broken down, becomes a cleansing agent for the digestive tract and is an effective intestinal lubricant."
It'd also be nice to know if the snail could out-fast the bugs. If the bugs live from the snail and the snail isn't eating perhaps they will die quicker or attempt to leave. That could be a treatment.
Again, it all comes down to what the things are. Once we know more about the lifecycle etc and what commercial (and probably harmful to snails) treatments are available we can begin to find non-lethal treatments.
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 14, 2005 7:12:30 GMT
I've got them Emma, those little white bobbles! Someone told me they sounded like soil parasites and to keep woodlice in you tank to act as competition for the food that these 'things' live on.
I'm going to try and catch some and send them to Morgan, so we know once and for all!!
Anjie,x.
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Emma
Achatina achatina
Posts: 98
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Post by Emma on Jul 14, 2005 7:17:41 GMT
They are gross! arent they? Im glad I noticed them as they dont seem to do very well with baby snails at all. I will try finding some woodlice! did u put some in ur tank? Where did u find them? I find woodlice considerably less offensive than these gross little buggers! Did u notice which snails they came from or did they just suddenly turn up?
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Emma
Achatina achatina
Posts: 98
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Post by Emma on Jul 14, 2005 7:28:43 GMT
I will give the Garlic and vinegar option a go. I know it might not go down with the snails, but neither do the bugs. Firstly i will try spraying them onto a piece of food to see if the bugs die I think that would be best. I will leave a piece of food in there a couple of days as I think this is the best way of collecting a sample. (I really dont wanna go digging around in excrement) lol. At the moments I have my affected snails spread around 4 tanks to help keep the populations of parasite down. the more snails in the tank the worse the problem (kinda self explanatory really)
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Post by pheonixx on Jul 14, 2005 12:08:04 GMT
Hmmm I have been giving this some thought and what about making a very weak solution of tea tree oil to sponge the snail down with...we use Melafix{tea tree based} in fact its the only meds snails can tolerate for aquarium snails..infections injurys etc..and if you have kids isnt tea tree the thing head lice hate...keeping the solution away from the face like you would with a child..or maybe just do the shell with it..I dunno its just a thought...and as for the garlic I will try to make some foods for the gals with it and report back to you...Linda
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 14, 2005 13:32:41 GMT
You're so right Linda! Tea tree oil is great for detering head lice! I should know with 2 young kids at Infant school lol.
The garlic in the food is a great idea - wouldn't it be wonderful to find something natural that will rid our snails of internal parasites in a natural way - don't know about you but i hate feeling helpless when it comes to the health of my snails.
Anjie,x.
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Post by Beth on Jul 14, 2005 17:43:55 GMT
I've been racking my brains for days over these parasites, it takes a long time for me to remember things........snail speed!!! I knew I'd heard of something natural that helped cure worms in humans........just now while cutting a melon I remembered........Pumpkin seeds! I've just done a search and it's true ;D There are lots of references to it. So if the snails will eat them maybe they will help them too! Here's a few links to get you started: www.health4youonline.com/health_article_pumpkins.htmThis person treated his fish! members.aol.com/powerfulpumpkins/www.genhealth.com/pumpkin_seed.htmJust found this too on alternative de-wormers for farm animals! www.abdn.ac.uk/organic/organic_14c.phpI haven't time to read through the links properly, but hope there is something there to help. Beth
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 14, 2005 17:48:21 GMT
omg, my snails love these! I grind them up in their chicken moosh mix. Does it matter if they are ground??
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Post by natrat84 on Jul 14, 2005 18:03:56 GMT
Sounds good ;D Well done. Maybe this should be put into a message on the pests/disease board ;D saves having to search for it later on if anybody needs it. Nat Beth - I have pasted your message into a new thread for people to find easily, hope you don't mind
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Emma
Achatina achatina
Posts: 98
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Post by Emma on Jul 15, 2005 1:01:05 GMT
How do u prepare pumkin seeds for your snails? and where do u get them? I know pumkins are not in season at the mo.. so where to you get a substantial seed supply?
Open to any suggestions.
I am gonna collect a sample of the parasites and try various solutions of vinegar and garlic on them. If it works I will set up a "hospital tank" so i can try these solutions on my snails. Im thinking a skin test would be the best option. similar to the one u are *supposed* to do before dying ur hair some bizarre shade. If the snails dont seem to phased i will trying increasing the area applied. Maybe a garlic/vinegar solution could then be made to treat the soil (if it worked) tea tree also sounds a pretty good idea. Maybe the solution could be used as a regular tank spray to replace the usual water used to moisten the substrate.
I know its a risk to a degree but considering the risk it poses to the snails general health and growth I think it is a risk worth pursuing.
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 15, 2005 7:08:49 GMT
Emma, Holland and Barrett health food shops have pumpkin seeds by the cart load lol. They do all different sized packets. There's one in Chatham High Street opposite Primark ......... Do i sound like a shopping addict now lol
Anjie,x.
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Post by pheonixx on Jul 15, 2005 7:44:17 GMT
Emma do you have a Aldi or Netto or Lidel near you I saw seeds in all of these cheepo shops this week H & B may be expensive...Linda
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Post by anjieburdett on Jul 15, 2005 12:08:03 GMT
OK guys, i've mixed up a paste of ground pumpkin seeds, porridge oats and chicken moosh pellets. They just love it and have devoured loads. If its to be used to expel worms then me and Nat think i should feed it everyday for a week.......what do you lot think??
Anjie,x.
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Post by bookitten on Jul 15, 2005 12:11:25 GMT
what about hemp seed? core, they'd be meen leen crapping machines!
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