coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Dec 17, 2011 6:49:53 GMT
petsnails.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=foruminfo&action=display&thread=5527from the head admin Paul: "We have a good debate and sometimes things get heated but we all maintain a healthy level of respect for each other. . . . Personal attacks will not be tolerated. There is simply no need."
. . . "I won't boot people off for having an opinion but from this point forward, if I think anyones posts are antagonistic and if it keeps happening I will do so, to save the forum."
. . . "The point is, that I have been forced to assert that this forum is here for snail information and points of interest, it has nothing to do with anything else. If the users are suffering because it is hijacked by sarcasm and ridicule then that has to go elsewhere, somewhere intended purely for expression and not information."Stop posting sarcastic, ridiculing and antagonistic things, please, foghog.
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Dec 17, 2011 9:44:03 GMT
what did I post that was any of those things? I didn;t ridicule anyone to my knowledge, nor posted anything antagonistic, and do not even remember anything sarcastic. could you please point something out by copying it and pasting it?
I mean someone could theoretically get upset about anything anyone said about anything, but I do not think that fits the definition of antagonistic. and a moderator themselves posted to me not to long ago that when they post, it is first as a person and not as a moderator....so I do not think me asking if the discussion was actually part of the rules or merely your personal view points, which wouldn't be part of the forums rules at all is antagonistic either. a person obviously has to know, in order to follow the rules, if it is a rule or not. I am not usually even 'heated' when I post, so I know that cannot be a problem, and the quote right above says people won;t be booted for having a opinion." so that obviously isn't against the rules.
is it antagonistic when you do not like it or any moderator does not like it or agree with it only? that would seem to contradict the ""I won't boot people off for having an opinion" part to me anyways. I just want to know whats what is all, so am asking for clarification. I'm sure others didn't mean to upset anyone either, they just wanted to talk and discuss the issue, which does involve snails and the hobby and them as pets.
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Post by ness on Dec 17, 2011 10:34:14 GMT
yes. but keep in mind those are also US laws. so anyone shipping into the US isn't really bound by them, but it can and does risk the life of the animal you ship, and there is risk to the person who 'accepts' the package being shipped to them. Are you sure? Last time I checked the sender also risked a heavy penalty. As for GALS being illegal in the US and in other countries where there are areas of permanently warm climate - quite right! It only takes a few un-noticed eggs to be thrown out in a soil change to create a devastating invasion. Seriously I think people underestimate the damage Giant African Land Snails can cause, and the attempts to clear the land from these invasions can also cause great damage. Even responsible owners can make mistakes and there is always a risk that these snails can be sold on to people who just do not care about such matters. The US (and other places with areas of year-round warmth) therefore cannot allow any of these snails in. Penalties can be severe, not just to the snails, but to those involved. There is also a chance that snail smuggling/illegal/unethical behaviour by snail-keepers may also lead to tighter control of keeping snails else-where too. As for your point in another post about the bleeding-heart liberals crying over destroyed snails - my PERSONAL opinion (not talking as a Mod) is that we are responsible for the lives of the creatures that we choose to keep as pets. Of course we destroy eggs, there is little choice in that matter, but that is very different from sending them out on journeys where it is known that the snails have a high risk of being destroyed. Your point that thousands are destroyed in nature does not mean that it's fine to take high risks with those you are supposed to be caring for. OK perhaps the rules don't specifically state this subject matter. However, people have a responsibility not to encourage illegal behaviour, or behaviour that may turn our hobby into disrepute, and those that do are quite rightly requested not to by moderators. Forum rules can't cover every specific scenario which I am in no doubt you are aware, I think you are trying to be nit-picky on the matter. You have every right not to agree with moderator opinions/decisions but for the sake of the fourm and the reprersentation of the hobby people should respect the Moderators in doing their job. Of course Coyote or anyone else is not almighty and do not pretend to be, so your sarcasm is not appreciated. You are entitled to your opinion as much as everyone else, whether it is the same as a Mod or not. We're not here to tell you what to THINK but we don't endorse any encouragement of smuggling snails to places where they are clearly banned. Even if we are privately in agreement (which none of us are) we would be really rather stupid to allow forum members to encourage this. Please refrain from jumping down Coyote's throat every time she A) expresses an opinion that differs to yours and B) tries to keep the thread on track. Moderators on all forums are faced with weighing up freedom of speech against allowing posts that encourage illegal/unethical practise and posts that are insulting to others, and like it or not lines have to be drawn somewhere, and forum members should respect those lines or else may be barred. |
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Post by ness on Dec 17, 2011 10:42:34 GMT
what did I post that was any of those things? I didn;t ridicule anyone to my knowledge, nor posted anything antagonistic, and do not even remember anything sarcastic. could you please point something out by copying it and pasting it? I mean someone could theoretically get upset about anything anyone said about anything, but I do not think that fits the definition of antagonistic. and a moderator themselves posted to me not to long ago that when they post, it is first as a person and not as a moderator....so I do not think me asking if the discussion was actually part of the rules or merely your personal view points, which wouldn't be part of the forums rules at all is antagonistic either. a person obviously has to know, in order to follow the rules, if it is a rule or not. I am not usually even 'heated' when I post, so I know that cannot be a problem, and the quote right above says people won;t be booted for having a opinion." so that obviously isn't against the rules. is it antagonistic when you do not like it or any moderator does not like it or agree with it only? that would seem to contradict the ""I won't boot people off for having an opinion" part to me anyways. I just want to know whats what is all, so am asking for clarification. I'm sure others didn't mean to upset anyone either, they just wanted to talk and discuss the issue, which does involve snails and the hobby and them as pets. As stated there is nothing wrong with having a differing opinion to that of a Moderator, but snipes about 'almighty' mods is not called for. I would be surprised if you genuinely don't realise that your posts look like you were having a go at Coyote, and it also seems that when people disagree with your opinions you get quite scathing in places. You also don't appear to appreciate the fact that part of a Mod's job is to enforce a bit of moderation at times! |
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Dec 17, 2011 11:00:57 GMT
I didn't think I was jumping down anyone's throat at all, nor do I think I was encouraging illegal activity. in fact I wasn't. I was talking about the law, and it is not illegal to do that, nor is it illegal to talk about the laws limitations, or the reality of its enforcement. Nor is it immoral or turning the hobby into dispute as you put it. it is merely talking. The person who suggested someone alter the contents and lie about it, was, and he apologized for it. I didn't suggest anyone do anything, and neither did anyone else involved in the conversation.
"yes. but keep in mind those are also US laws. so anyone shipping into the US isn't really bound by them, but it can and does risk the life of the animal you ship, and there is risk to the person who 'accepts' the package being shipped to them."
"Are you sure? Last time I checked the sender also risked a heavy penalty."
Nothing I said contradicts that at all. I said they were not bound by US laws. the laws of their own country and co-operation with the US, is something else, and for that, a person has to look at the laws within their own country. I know for a fact, most countries have no such fines, though merely for breaking a US import law. their only concern, and really even their only jurisdiction is really if it breaks their export laws. If it's a serious issue, like a persistent problem it may at most cause packages from a specific source to be flagged regularly for inspection at most. I have received bags of snails from family in belgium, in personal packages. there is no debate about it really. now I will state, that legally it is ok to ship such things if they are not alive, or are frozen(just so everyone knows I am not admitting to doing anything illegal or even promoting it.) but with many snails you cannot tell if they are in hibernation/estivation, especially from x-ray or anything else, and these packages were not even opened, so obviously no one even looked at them or through them.
exactly which is why it is respectful to ask for the clarifications so that one knows where those so called lines are drawn, and do not have to guess. it is unreasonable to expect the line to be drawn as "anything I or any other mod thinks is wrong, or something we do not like" because no one can ever know what that is, and it is likely to change with different mods and even different moods of each mod. for instance Coyote said :
she stated specifically it was what she 'thought' not 'not to do it' as a mod, or that is was against any policy at all, which I do not think it is. I was nothing but respectful asking.
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Post by axoloa on Dec 17, 2011 19:36:55 GMT
Are you sure? Last time I checked the sender also risked a heavy penalty. . The sender can in fact also risk a very heavy penalty just like you said, but only those who have signed a declaration and have failed to declair what is realy inside their package  Bottom line in this case would be not to send the package if you have to lie in order to do so.. |
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Post by brunni on Dec 18, 2011 14:27:48 GMT
I don't think it's in the best interest of this message board to discuss ways to break laws, regardless of how we feel about these laws.
I fully support Coyote & Ness and would suggest the thread is locked if some members can't accept this simple fact.
Maybe they would like to operate their own site and forum where other members accept this kind of attitude but seems these comments are not really appreciated HERE ?
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Post by ness on Dec 18, 2011 20:44:41 GMT
agreed. Locked for the time being....
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Bottom line in this case would be not to send the package if you have to lie in order to do so..