SNAIL LOAN SCHEME

[lorisarvendu]

Hi all

I'm a bit new and don't post much (apart from my fulica stuff in Pictures), but I've been thinking. I've got 2 fulicas, who are presumably siblings. I bet their parents were siblings, and maybe further back than that. I've read some comments on here about fulicas being small or having problems, maybe due to inbreeding, and it occurs to me that every time someone gets a pair of snails, they're probably closely related.

Now I know snails don't get about much in the wild, so most in a given area will be closely related anyway, but because most people (myself included) often get pairs of related snails and breed from them, maybe we're not doing the best for genetic diversity?

Perhaps a bit of swopping would be a good idea, or getting one example of a species from one place and one from another. Kab has just got 353 new Tiger babies and I bet a lot of people would love one or two of them (myself included ), but that'll mean a lot of inbreeding going on, unless everyone's careful.

After all, smaller sized fulicas might be down to inbreeding, and I don't think anyone would want Tigers to start shrinking!

Am I barking up a wrong tree here? Any thoughts?

Dave

[ian]

Yes the problems with fulica are a major problem and there is a possibilty of these problems occuring in other species, I think we have started to see them in Two-tones (immaculata).

Im looking to swap a fulica at the moment so if you want to swap one of yours for an unrelated one, I have one available just PM me.

There is no actual proof that any negative effects are caused by inbreeding but I think it can be safely assumed. There is bound to be some natural inbreeding in wild populations of snails which doesnt cause any harm whatsoever, but long term inbreeding that we have seen in captivity clearly could be damaging.

As far as Tigers are concerned I think the fact the wild caught adults are readily available through Brixton (I have two) will seriously decrease the occurance of inbreeding. Hopefully new owners are responsible and can avoid inbreeding where possible. Everyone on this forum is well informed enough to do their best.

Ive read another thread about a breeders register which woudl make it easier to track snails bloodlines, I thinnk that is a great idea.

I for oneam totally willing to swap snails for breeding purposes, im currently looking for a few fulica to swap. And soon may be looking for a few rodatzi/hamillei and iredalei.

[danikat]

I know my 5 fulica are inbred for at least one generation, their parents are all from the same clutch. In their parents owners defense she wasn't planning to breed them, she just failed to find a clutch of eggs.

Mine don't seem to be affected though. They're maybe a little bit smaller than I remember their parents being at this age but that could easily be my memory at fault. On the other hand I wouldn't breed from them because then it is likely to be a problem.

But the trouble with inbreeding is that theres actually a lot of variation in wether its a prolem and how much of a problem it is. If an animal has no deterimental genes in its DNA then inbreeding isn't a problem, its only when the siblings are both carriers of a harmful gene and the baby gets two copies (meaning the gene has to be expressed) that we see harmful effects.
So at the best end of the scale it could have no effect, at the worst end it could hypothetically cause things like snails with no shells, or even still born babies.

Some sort of database or snail family tree would definately be beneficial though, esspecially for common species like fulica. Trouble is although we could start from what we've got and build it up it could be very difficult to get a decent tree for the snails we've got so far.
For example I know the parents of my snails (or rather I know their owner) and I know they're the only desendants. But I know nothing at all about their grandparents. I don't know who their owner is, who they've got snails from or who they've given them to. So if I did decide to breed mine (unlikely since they're fulicas) I'd never be able to be entirely sure I wasn't breeding them with their cousins or something.

But having said that if we started now we could get at least a partial database going and add to it as time goes on and it definately couldn't hurt.

Short of that even just encoraging people to buy from diffrent breeders every time they want snails to mate will help a little.

[spook]

Hi all,
I for one would not agree with inbreeding.I've seen the affect it can have on dogs when the blood lines are so closely related(still borns and deformities). But then the 2 fulicas that i have will be siblings,their parents would have been siblings and quite possibly their grandparents but i don't know that for sure. The 2 that i own do seem to be unaffected as far as size is concerned(see the pictures post Vic & Bob)there are a couple of comments on how big they are!I do know their siblings are slightly smaller but i also know there are more snails in a smaller tank, maybe this has something to do with their size!?

I moved some posts from old topic to here they are related to swapping - CroSSLeSS

[rosanna123]

what does everyone think of a snail loaning scheme, this is where you loan you snails to someone for a certain amount of time, in return they send you have the money or half the babies produced in that time

[ness]

I've wondered the same thing myself, but came to my own personal conclusion that it could get messy if things go wrong.

If I loaned a snail out, and the snail died or contracted mites while in his care then I'll feel bad for the snail that I ever loaned it out. Likewise if a snail died whilst in my care that may be awkward ........

I would happily swap amongst people I know well as I realise that my snails would be in good care, so if something happened it wouldn't be their fault. And likewise I would feel confident that my own friends would know that I've cared for their snail well, even if it went wrong.

Then there's the people who would take advantage of the scheme by grabbing an opportunity to get a snail for the price of postage, and may claim it's died and just keep the snail, or sell it.

I would say go ahead and arrange it ONLY with those you trust, and who trust you, and be mindful of those species that don't like many changes.

[rosanna123]

we have been discussing this on another forum worldofsnails.site90.net/index.php and we were thinking about contracts and deposits, in case anything was to go wrong, we are also trying to make up a list of people who would be intrested in this loan scheme

[copigeon]

Where in lies the benefit?
I see only risk and arguments.
Why would you "loan" a snail? For all the things that could go wrong, what would you achieve by doing this?
Far better to donate in a permanent breeding loan in hope of having hatchlings in return?

Alot of species take a while to acclimatise or can take months even years to successfully reproduce, and those which dont are so readily available why would you risk a loan?

[rosanna123]

it was just an idea that i had, as i am currently entering into a loan

[copigeon]

So you must hope to gain something by loaning the snail? What is it you hope to gain?
I'm am genuinely perplexed - unless its an unusual species with a long term in mind?

[rosanna123]

the deal is that i have no lay out on they snails, they are sent to me and i care for them and breed them, when the babies are ready i will then sell them and send half of the money to the owner who i am loaning them off

[copigeon]

So you want to borrow snails to make money?
Why would anyone loan adult snails to someone so they can breed them, to sell on?

If you were talking about a, pact to secure a species within captivity, or maintain a healthy breeding population of a species we could be at risk of losing in captivity I can perhaps understand.

But borrowing snails to make money breeding them seems... odd?
Must be a very unusual species?

[ness]

I can see an opportunity for temporarily loaning snails to breed with another, in theory, but like Copidgeon says it can take months to get snails to breed.
So would you then send the snail back or do you end up keeping the snail and just send on half the profits to the original owner?

If the snail is kept but doesn't breed or the babies don't survive (which is common with unfamiliar snails - or those new to captivity) then the original owner has lost a snail and gained nothing.

I understand it working with turantulas, I would have thought it's more straight forward with them and more certain of getting a good batch of spiderlings, so even if the male is eaten after mating there would be a likely profit at the end of it for the original owner. But snails? They're tricky little critters at times, things are not always straight-forward with them.
Although I have to admit - I would be wary of any scheme like this with any animal. Like I say you have to be very sure of who you'rre dealing with, else alot of people will end up with problems with it, and losing out etc.

Yes I agree again with Copidgeon, makes more sense in trying to secure a captive bred snail population of an unusual species, and for trying to gain genetic variety in breeding stock.
Even then I would favour a straight swap

[rosanna123]

i will have them on a 6 month loan, me and the owner will be in costant contact over what is happening, if they dont breed then they dont breed. as i said if they do breed then the owner would get half of the profits, but the snails will still be sent back after the 6 months unless we have decided different

[ness]

It could work, but just be very very carreful that you trust each other well, and be confident that you'll not get blamed if anything happens to the snail whilst in your care.

[rosanna123]

this is why i was thinking of contracts and deposits

[lee2211]

Aug 23, 2010 20:20:35 GMT copigeon said:

So you want to borrow snails to make money?
Why would anyone loan adult snails to someone so they can breed them, to sell on?

If you were talking about a, pact to secure a species within captivity, or maintain a healthy breeding population of a species we could be at risk of losing in captivity I can perhaps understand.

But borrowing snails to make money breeding them seems... odd?
Must be a very unusual species?

I believe it's either with white jades/jadatzis or a retic.
Nothing extremely rare I don't think.

[rosanna123]

yeah, they are only albino retics and albino jades, just for me to add to my breeding groups and to raise a little bit of money

[ness]

Aug 23, 2010 20:30:39 GMT rosanna123 said:

this is why i was thinking of contracts and deposits

Then you need to look into the legalities of such contracts and be prepared to go to a small claims court if things go wrong, else why have a contract?
An agreement so everyone understands what is expected is very sensible, but contracts are a whole different area, and if you are running this scheme people will look to you to take action if something goes wrong, and if you can't put any clout behind your contract then it's worthless.
I'm not being harsh, it's just a fact. I've had to get legal action started against someone myself to defend someone who was conned, it's something you're either prepaired to do or your not, and if you're not then I'd advise you not to go down the route of making a contract.

I can see it sounds good on the face of it - but when you look deeper into it things can go messy and you can find yourself in a situation that you don't want to deal with, or can't do much about, and then people feel you've let them down by making them feel safe with a contract that doesn't work.

And thinking about it, the amount of money would be small. It wouldn't even be worth going to a small claims court. there really would be no action that you could take against someone who goes against the contract, apart from kicking him/her off your scheme. Therefore such a contract would have no value, I think.

[rosanna123]

no, by contract i mean an agreement between the two people where a deposit will be taken in case of anything happening. this deposit will then be given back on the safe return of the snails, i understand how things can go wrong i am just making suggesturns for a scheme that could work

[ness]

Well I'm not saying there's no way of making it work.

The best scheme would be amongst local people, with a temporary loan of a snail hand-delivered. I'd consider swapping with a local friend on occasions.

I wouldn't want to be keep swapping my snails around with people in general though, I prefer long-term homes.

Just bare in mind that some snails don't like being shifted around regularly.

[crossless]

I don't understand giving for snails temporary home. Like in way of investment.. Investment is more like giving permanent home for snails or other animals that no one buy otherwise. If I would need to give up my snails I would sell them and buy then new ones after I can keep them again. You can get snails so easily that I would not like to fight for them with person that cares them have attached to them in that time they have cared them..

[ness]

Yes I agree Crossless. I'd rather selll a snail to a long term home or keep my snail. I'd consideer a loan to only a few people who would care for the snail in a way that I'd be happy with, and preferably local.

I see Rosanna's point, if you can't afford to keep buying snails then how do you get new ones for breeding? Then thinking of a reward for the snail-owner by way of profit-sharing sounds like a way forward, but I think you've got to be very careful and selective about who you deal with, and careful about the treatment of the snails.

For this reason I personally think it's something best done amongst good friends, and not amongst a big circle of people joining a scheme.

[copigeon]

Am I missing a point with the type of snails you're loaning?
A. reticulata and A. fulica are common place - how could you imagine this would actually make you money?
Why go through all the hassle of loaning such a common species? The risk, the posting back and forth. They're a cheap enough investment and quick to mature.

When you add up the costs of rearing, feed, heating, housing, substrate and the time involved there really isn't any pay out in common species. They cost more to rear than you ever make back in selling them.

If you're not loaning a common species then you're looking for a specific person with a specific species in which case a "loan system" isn't necessary, its just an agreement between two people regarding reproducing on a large colony scale.

As with anything, contracts agreements and deposits will mean nothing to a dishonest party.
I would suggest if you, or anyone else goes in on the idea, you be prepared to lose all. Then if you become the victim of dishonesty, you take it on the chin and move on. If you're doing anything at distance with strangers, there will always be an element of risk.

[rosanna123]

i know there is an element of risk, adult albinos of any species are hard to find, i know hence i am doing this loaning system, i was going to buy these snails, but the owner changed his mind so he is going to loan them to me instead, his idea. they will not cost me much to raise, not with the amonut of snails i own,