conditions for CB

[Moracai]

I've been thinking (yes, i know. dangerous) We keep WC in the conditions that are native to where they originated. But with CB would they not be acclimatised to whatever conditions you kept them in from hatching? Or are the conditions they prefer a hereditary thing?
Hope that makes sense.

[Val]

Hmm, interesting question, I have always supposed it was a hereditary thing but I don't see why they could not get used to something a bit different if that was all they had experienced.

Val

[Arno]

I guess it's a bit of both.CB could get used to conditions you keep them in but they will need some basic conditions they also would have in the wild(humidity for example).The amount of light they get could be something that they could adapt to I think.

[Moracai]

So you think it could be a hereditary thing?
All my babies are kept in the conditions that their WC parents are used to, but I was just wondering if we know for a fact it's in their "blood" so to speak to live in specific conditions, or if it's a case of being what they are used to having.
Maybe I just think too much

[Paul]

I think it is a good question and one that is a combination of both acclimatisation and biological requirements inherited. My captive-bred tigers are much more active than their parents at lower temperatures and they have the best shells of all my snails. Until they are the same size however, I can't draw too many conclusions but I do think CB snails are likely to be a little more acclimatised and I think because of that more successful at breeding in captivity. That doesn't mean they can be hardied to any condition, because we know that their biology is adapted to tropical conditions and a certain level of heat will always be needed to provide an increase in metabolism and energy that allows such a massive snail to move. More than likely, that's the primary reason why you don't get giant snails in temperate countries (to my knowledge anyway).

I'm not sure what role light plays, I imagine it is important, but less so perhaps than other things because of it being so constant all year round. The 10 month lunar cycle plays a large part in the timing of breeding of other equatorial species, why not snails? In West-Africa, there tends to be is a wet then dry season, then a wetter and another dry season so humidity and temperature are probably more important than light length.

The question is whether these changes in seasons and conditions at certain times of year are fully entwined with snail biology or have snails simply adapted dormancy to cope with what they would consider adverse conditions, and that if there were such a place that had the perfect conditions all year round, would they continuously grow and breed? On the one hand, Archachatina seem to lay at specific times of year but Judging by what I have seen of snails generally in captivity, I'd say they probably would grow more regularly and breed faster and more often.

[Moracai]

I have already noticed that there is more activity in the margie baby tank than in the adult tank. The conditions are the same, except for light. The babies have a clear top so more light. The adults are in a wooden vivarium with glass doors, so therefore less light. The heat will be the same as they are kept in the same room, and they receive the same amount of humidity.
I didn't realise it was the heat that was needed for movement, I had always thought it was a light isue. But I suppose they are connected, more light usually means more heat is being introduced to the tank.

[deadmansfinger]

moracai said:

I have already noticed that there is more activity in the margie baby tank than in the adult tank. The conditions are the same, except for light. The babies have a clear top so more light. The adults are in a wooden vivarium with glass doors, so therefore less light. The heat will be the same as they are kept in the same room, and they receive the same amount of humidity.
I didn't realise it was the heat that was needed for movement, I had always thought it was a light isue. But I suppose they are connected, more light usually means more heat is being introduced to the tank.

my margie adults are in a wooden viv too but I fitted a light to the inside. It's one that is meant for above a bathroom mirror so is totally waterproof too. Also the viv stays quite warm and the snails are really active. (well they crawl quickly between the foodbowl and the waterbowl )

I definately saw a difference in their activity levels after I installed the light but I also saw a difference in temp and humidity with the light installed so hard to say which caused the difference in activity.

Brian.

[Moracai]

I have been looking for lights for my wooden viv's. I understand that flourescent gives off very little heat? maybe I will test the heat on the ones at work. Even if people will look at me weird (they already think i am weird for keeping snails )
If I introduce more lighting then hopefully more activity from my adult margies.

[deadmansfinger]

try and find the all in one bathroom style lights i got. they have got something like a 20watt bulb in them and are in a completely sealed unit. you can even daisy chain them together.
cost me £10 each.

Brian.

[Moracai]

oh! I think I saw those in wilkinsons, called link lights?

[deadmansfinger]

moracai said:

oh! I think I saw those in wilkinsons, called link lights?

just checked, bathroom link lights!

could be them. they have holes in them for hanging so i just drilled 2 holes in viv lid and secured them with a nut and bolt, bit fiddly though. Then I covered the bolts inside the tank with a blob of silicone.

Brian.

[Moracai]

oh.
Hmm, could be the same thing though. They linked together and you could have as many in a strip as you wanted.
Also saw some that worked with batteries so no worry about drilling holes for wires.

[deadmansfinger]

also at 20 watt they dont get too hot but are bright enough to allow the elderberry wood in my tank to keep growing.

Brian.

[deadmansfinger]

moracai said:

oh.
Hmm, could be the same thing though. They linked together and you could have as many in a strip as you wanted.
Also saw some that worked with batteries so no worry about drilling holes for wires.

i think these recommend linking 6 units at a maximum either via cables or directly into each other to make 1 long unit.

I would go for the electric ones as the battery ones won't last long before you need to change the batteries and also aren't as bright.

Brian.

[Moracai]

Think I will give them a go then.
ta muchly Brian

[fabrizio]

While it's quite unlikely that any mutation does occour to "tune" new CB generations' biology with CB conditions, I believe some -mostly unaware- process of Selection actually takes place in that.

-If a certain species is "optimally tuned" with some natural array of conditions (enclosing food types), remaining at the same time quite marginally variable in its genetic pre-adaptations, it can simply happen that, once faced with a not-natural set of conditions, the specimens whose genetic potential range allows them cope better with them will survive, or at least will thrive much better than their "less-adaptable" siblings.
Such avariability range could even exist within the same egg batch.
-Unintentionally, every CB generation we get, we do "select" the better "tuned" specimens, acting much the same as Natural Selection. And the mere fact that the "habitat" here is one we "artificially" recreate, doesn't change anything in that very basic mechanism.

So, provided the great obstacle of the first captive reproduction is passed, every generation we get, we enhance the possibility to get a "totally captivity-adapted" breed line, even of the most fussy "wild" species.
-Provided such potential genetic capability already exists, although unseen, we could for example get a CB breed of Amphidromus much easier to feed, no more bound to lichens as sole (or chief) food, and more apt to breed...

[aerliss]

Domestication for the win!

Sorry... couldn't resist.

Interesting hypothesis, fabrizio.

If we were very good at picking out the right snails, we could influence the process. Choosing snails that are active in lower temperatures to breed, for example. Of course, we'd probably never get them fully attuned to native climates without vastly shrinking their size... swings and roundabouts.

[fabrizio]

You're right Aerliss, while "selecting" one certain trait, we could -being unaware of that- find we're selecting some other, expecially if they are corelated each other...
If a smaller size is the payoff to sustain a metabolism at lower than usual temperatures, as we select "cold tolerant" snails (thriving at some degree less than the usual), we could at the same time find, we are selecting smaller size of them... and this too, could be a way of "adding something" to their naturally given diversity.

-When smaller and smaller breeds of dogs were selected, -without breeders being aware of that- even another important genetic trait was being selected, a modified reaction affecting IGF-1 (concerning Insuline action); in fact, it's through the insuuine-pathway, that a smaller adult size is achieved (so in humans too, it seeems). www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6322493

-And the important side-effect of "dwarfism", was a somewhat double lifespan, for the "dwarf breeds" of dogs...

-Of course, as you wrote, watching carefully, better understanding the involved factors and selecting babies and breeding pairs on purpose, could speed up and better direct the whole process...

-It's possible, that in the case we will prove able to select an "easy" lineage of some Amphidromus sp., able to accept an array of "easier" foods, we could find that it has been possible, but only at the expenses of their colouration; but who knows...?
In any case, they would be interesting and worthy to be kept, I believe.

There is a lot of available room I believe, for achieving somewhat "new", and perhaps easier snail strains to keep (as well as more "happy" and captivity-adapted kept snails, indeed!)