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Post by ZOO CENTRE on Mar 20, 2012 5:28:55 GMT
Hello all,
please do you know some difference between Achatina fulica hamillei f.rodatzi 'Albino body' and A.fulica hamillei f.jadatzi?
In my opinion IT IS THE SAME!
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Post by copigeon on Mar 20, 2012 7:31:07 GMT
Captive bred fulica are a mess.
"Jadatzi" is a pet name given to a selectively bred colour form.
As is "Jade".
They are not sub species, they are colour forms.
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Post by Evil Angel on Mar 20, 2012 12:20:03 GMT
To me, Rodatzi is albino shell with normal flesh, and Jadatzi is the abino shell with albino flesh. never heard of Jadatzi being called Achatina fulica hamillei f.rodatzi 'Albino body' before!  |
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Post by ZOO CENTRE on Mar 20, 2012 23:09:20 GMT
Captive bred fulica are a mess. "Jadatzi" is a pet name given to a selectively bred colour form. As is "Jade". They are not sub species, they are colour forms. Yes I know- the subspecies is hamillei-f.(form-colour) Rodatzi or Jadatzi |
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Post by ZOO CENTRE on Mar 20, 2012 23:23:48 GMT
To me, Rodatzi is albino shell with normal flesh, and Jadatzi is the abino shell with albino flesh. never heard of Jadatzi being called Achatina fulica hamillei f.rodatzi 'Albino body' before! Yes I agree with you but some breeders differentiate the Rodatzi albino flesh and the Jadatzi and breed them as two different snails. In other countries is not used the name Jadatzi but Rodatzi albino,Rodatzi albino body.. |
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Post by ZOO CENTRE on Mar 20, 2012 23:34:53 GMT
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Post by copigeon on Mar 21, 2012 7:11:56 GMT
This is it, there is no such thing as a jadatzi - its a pet name given to a cross. They probably should be labeled as A. fulica h. rodatzi (white bodied/fleshed).
Cant stand the term "jadatzi".
Jade isnt a colour form either, its just a name given to an initial import of chinese food snails which were bred for their white flesh - to eat. Theyve been selectively produced. They again probably should be listed as A. fulica (white flesh), the name "Jade" stuck, and really should be used in "" where its used at all.
Problem is Jara most pet keepers will be looking for the name "jadatzi" when they see a snail which looks like that, and they will assume that a white flesh rodatzi is in some way a different sub species if its labeled as such. Hence you get people listing the same species twice under different naming conventions.
European snail hobbiests tend to be a little less... fluffy? about snails, so you tend to find a more methodical naming convention for cross/non historical species, which is why you see the "white flesh" being used.
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Post by ZOO CENTRE on Mar 21, 2012 20:24:42 GMT
This is it, there is no such thing as a jadatzi - its a pet name given to a cross. They probably should be labeled as A. fulica h. rodatzi (white bodied/fleshed). Cant stand the term "jadatzi". Jade isnt a colour form either, its just a name given to an initial import of chinese food snails which were bred for their white flesh - to eat. Theyve been selectively produced. They again probably should be listed as A. fulica (white flesh), the name "Jade" stuck, and really should be used in "" where its used at all. Problem is Jara most pet keepers will be looking for the name "jadatzi" when they see a snail which looks like that, and they will assume that a white flesh rodatzi is in some way a different sub species if its labeled as such. Hence you get people listing the same species twice under different naming conventions. European snail hobbiests tend to be a little less... fluffy? about snails, so you tend to find a more methodical naming convention for cross/non historical species, which is why you see the "white flesh" being used. I absolutely agree with you. But I asked for the same question (Rodatzi 'albino body= Jadatzi?) on other forum more one year ago and received the following answer: Not quite, Jadatzi are a cross between White Jade fulica and Rodatzi fulica, and can be either of these combinations: Dark shell + dark flesh (looks like normal fulica) Dark shell + albino flesh (looks like White Jade) Albino (yellow) shell + dark flesh (looks like Rodatzi) Albino shell + albino flesh (full albino, the Holy Grail!) The parents of all my juveniles are full albino. Each snail carries the genes for the different colours (regardless of their own appearance), and when they breed they can produce offspring in all or any of the combinations above. |
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Post by ness on Mar 21, 2012 20:44:00 GMT
The information is correct.
The thing is they are not simply albino versions of Achatina fulica. var hamillei f. rodatzi, as that would imply that an albino form suddenly sprung from the hamillei form, which isn't the case, they are not a crossbreed either.
But they ARE the crossing of two genetic lines of fulica, one is the Achatina fulica var. hamillei f.rodatzi and the other is the Achatina fulica f. albino (common name Jade). It really refers to the genetic line and are not necessarily albino.
Technically perhaps the albino fleshed rodatzi-shelled fulica from this line could be called Achatina fulica var. hamillei f.rodatzi f.albino, but that's so long-winded that Jadatzi is so much easier.
It's really no different to referring to a Daisy as a Daisy, instead of it's latin name (whatever that may be). Many species of animal and plants have both scientific names and common names, it really is very common. It is correct that the Jadatzi term is not official, and neither is the Jade, but then again perhaps the Tiger snail is not official either? We know it's an Achatina achatina but most folk don't see the harm in referring to them as Tigers.
So there we go - Jadatzi refers to the genetic line, there to distinguish them from other similar-looking snails to get an idea of the possible genetics, it never was official, but neither are alot of other names.
With many creatures, from rodents to snakes, people strive to create different colour forms of the animal. Some are all for it and this is a whole huge part of the hobby, and some are against it, but the fact is creatures have been selectively bred since the dawning of pet-keeping, and it's very common for those who create a line with a distinguished feature to give it a common name. In many hobbies there's some sort of official body for you to register a name. With snails there is not, and to be fair people don;t usually go about trying to create colour combinations that otherwise wouldn't happen in snails, but being as fulica are so variable the potential is there, and people naturally want to give a name to it.
As a footnote, I coined the name. Sorry it's caused so many raised eyebrows but it was discussed with several established and respected snail hobbiests at the time who were all for it. We gave the genetic line a nickname to avoid confusing them with similar-looking snails, as people often like to know which line their snails are from, plus, like I say, they didn't just occur from a hamillei f. rodatzi, so calling it a rodatzi f. albino could have also caused confusion.
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Post by Evil Angel on Mar 22, 2012 0:11:19 GMT
What I meant was that I'd never heard of it being a different snail before. Thought it was just a dragged out way of saying Jadatzi, which I guess it is in a way after seeing the previous comments haha! Jadatzi will always mean full albino to me, my small brain cannot process them being called anything different based on how they were bred or whatever, much to complicated for me lol But for me, and my limited knowledge of snails, Ness' last comment seems to make the most sense to me, and is something even I can comprehend!  |
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Post by copigeon on Mar 22, 2012 17:55:53 GMT
Im sorry nes, but thats not entirely true. We have no way of confirming that rodatzi isnt just a colour form. Its described as a form of sub species hamillei but in reality could be another fluke of genetics from the original Achatina fulica population. We have no way of knowing how the gene which triggers the white flesh is passed on. When achatina were originally described many species were mistaken for being distinct, when really they are just populations of the same species carrying a unique trait which through some fluke of evolution has stuck.
Ontop of that fact - there is so little consideration for the heritage of snails when selling/keeping together/hatching ova, that your described clean "genetic cross" of rodatzi and white fleshed fulica is immediately dissolved, there are so many people selling fulica with no idea what they've been paired with in the past it becomes a farce to even guess their background.
I know it comes across as a bit harsh - but the reality is there is no "jade" its a pet name given to a white fleshed snail which was captively produced for its colour. And that the rodatzi cross has taken that white gene from the fulica population and attached it to the rodatzi colour form.
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Post by ness on Mar 23, 2012 22:22:19 GMT
Thanks for your reply Copidgeon You tend to think of things that I don't and I genuinely appreciate a healthy debate/discussion. I actually wish I had have discussed the whole thing with you before embarking on the Jadatzi experiment. Not that I have any regrets as so many people like the colour - they're popular, but you have come up with comments after the event that made me think... Im sorry nes, but thats not entirely true. We have no way of confirming that rodatzi isnt just a colour form. Its described as a form of sub species hamillei but in reality could be another fluke of genetics from the original Achatina fulica population. We have no way of knowing how the gene which triggers the white flesh is passed on. When achatina were originally described many species were mistaken for being distinct, when really they are just populations of the same species carrying a unique trait which through some fluke of evolution has stuck. I remember reading that they were from the hamillei line some years ago and simply accepted it at the time, as I guess most people did. It appeared to come from a reputable source and I thought nothing of it. However what you say makes sense. Snsil genetics are interesting, and I've noticed that colour changes appear to be triggered by some unknown factor at times, as the standard and simplified principle of genetics does not always appear to apply to snails. Perhaps there are many normal fulica who carry the potential to produce rodatzi under certain circumstances. However it could also run true that a fluke appeared through one genetic line and other normal fulica have not yet produced the same fluke, meaning that perhaps the hamillei line is unique after all? We don't know like you say. Again with the white fleshed. Within the pet trade I've not actually heard of white fleshed fulica popping up independently from the 'Jade' line. I guess they could do, albinoism pops up all over the place, but I've not seen it documented in fulica, other than from the Jade genetic line. Indeed the Jadatzi got their albino traits from the Jade line. True, but that's always been the case. We've had normal fulica paired with Jades, normal fulica paired with rodatzi, wild-caught paired with captive bred.... However when you pair two Jades together you pretty much know you're going to get Jades. If you pair two that look like Jades from the jadatzi line you may get snails that look like Jades as well as those that have the albino flesh and rodatzi shell. If you would prefer to lump the Jade line in with the Jadatzi albinos with normal shells then you'll have no idea which line they're from. However if folk are happy to do that then that's fine with me too. True, but it does serve to distinguish the genetic lines from each other - the pure-bred Jades from the mixed-genetic Jadatzis. Get rid of the pet-name - that's fine with me, but there will be no distinction. the fact is anyone can produce a white fleshed snail by pairing a white-fleshed, from for example the Jade line, with ANY other fulica, and then breeding two of the offspring together. I know I've just been harping on about pure-bred Jades but really there's no garuntee that some of those were purebred anyhow. But at least at the moment careful breeders can give folk some idea of the snails genetics when they know which line their snails are from. Get rid of the pet names and I wonder how people would then be able to make that distinction, if they were all called 'white-fleshed fulica'? I feel that calling the albino-fleshed rodatzi-shelled fulica 'albino rodatzi' is misleading genetics-wise. It would be fine if an albino just popped up in a litter of rodatzi babies, but being as they were deliberately bred with a Jade the pet name of Jadatzi shows that they have both Jade and rodatzi genetics in their line. There was a logic behind the name and I feel that logic still stands, and getting rid of the names will actulally cause confusion, but if people are happy with that then I don't mind either.  |
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Post by copigeon on Mar 24, 2012 8:08:05 GMT
I absolutely completely get where you're coming from Ness, I really do - see where youre going with this, and if you were talking about distinct subspecies you would be spot on. However, I dont think we are talking distinct sub species, and when it comes to jade its not a subspecies at all. Rodatzi came from hamillei - I know this because the rodatzi I originally had from a german seler were striped, and at first we thought we were cheated, I have never seen a hamillei since in the pet trade like those first snails I acquired and kick myself still for letting them go when I lost the hobby 4-5 years ago, but thier offspring were some of the first yellow shelled rodatzi to be distributed back on this forum all that time ago. What Im saying is, hamillei itself may not be as distinct as we would think, and the first rodatzi were about 5 snails in my batch of 200+ hatclings, it was only pairing them again, and again that the hamellei colour was lost to the yellow mutation. You only have to look at suturalis to see there is massive variance within a species, what makes hamellei distinct as a sub species? As far as jade is concerned, "Jade" snails were nicknamed jade because thats what they were called by the food manufactorer who first supplied them. They were acquired via Kevin davies what must be 5/6 years ago now. Maybe 15-20 snails shared out amoungst this forum. They were stunted, with poor shell growth, I can only assume due to the massive focus of producing white flesh over general health due to the fact they were grown for meat. They are Achatina fulica, with white flesh. They are not a distinct described sub species. They have been captively produced from a genetic fluke which gave the odd snail a white foot. And thus have been repeatedly bred back for that colouring. They are essentially Achatina fulica. Theres not really any such thing as a "pure bred jade", sure you can have a pure line of white footed Achatina fulica who produce true to the colour form because they havent been mixed with a different population, but theyre still Achatina fulica. Let me put it this way: A budgie is still a budgie, whether that bird has been bred for the lutino gene or not, a yellow budgie is still a budgie even though its yellow and called "lutino". If snails were birds, and Achatina fulica was a budgie, then a lutino budgie would be a "jade", but crossing it with a green budgie would still make its yellow offspring "lutino" not "jadegreeno" Im not sure if that made entirely any sense but. |
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