Purple/pink jadatzi

[muddydragon]

So in the past i've noticed a fair amount of pink in my jadatzi especially when young and it tends to stay on the tip when older until it starts to whiten. i've also seen a 'two tone' effect of darker and lighter yellow - which becomes less distinct as they age.

However some of the baby jadatzis i've bred this time round are showing especially pink/purple colouration (see example below).
I just wondered if anyone else had seen this?
I wondered if it could be the brown pigmentation trying to resurface (they're many generations jadatzi) as you can see a brown line reappear in this case. they seem to be growing well and strongly so there doesn't seem to be an associated growth problem.
any ideas?

[shaydeesnail]

My largest Jadatzi is quite pink at the tip, but not like yours, that snail is really beautiful. Wouldn't it be amazing if they stayed that colour as the grew?

[pinkunicorn]

Looks like an interesting and beautiful mutation! You should try breeding a new line out of this. If they have no defects at this point it's ok to try inbreeding to establish the colour gene in the line.

[rosiesnail2]

It looks amazing! I know I'd by one

[muddydragon]

So the purple/pink shells on some of the snails seem to be staying so far

Others are developing purplish stripes occasionally or patches of purple/bronze on a yellow background, some have the odd brown stripe on a yellow background and some have deep pink/purple tips and yellow outer whorls, and some are very pale yellow all over.
It's an interesting mix!

I've sorted through the albino skinned ones and counted 26 (of 67!) purple/pink/pinkishbronze all over so far from the stripes mating (all large) and 5 (of 18) from the Diamond mating (all large) and none from the jet mating (11). I'm going to keep a couple from each group at least to see how they grow up.

i'm going to sift through the silver/dark skinned ones later and see how many of those are showing this purple colouration.

once i've done that i'll put the purple all over ones i'm not keeping on the jadatzis for sale listing i have on here with an updated price list + photos of them as a group. and a photo of those i'll be selling as the normal jadatzi (which really covers full pale yellow to large areas of purple blushes). as i obviously can't keep them all! i'll let you know when they're up
If anyone buys any i'ld love to be updated on how they do! and what their colouration does!

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[aimee]

They are beautiful

[graemepryce]

I think they look really unique and beautiful. If your sure they're healthy and your happy about the unusual colour I would just consider yourself lucky and try to get some more of the same in future. I may be tempted to increase my snail collection here!

[aimee]

Thought I'd share a few pics of mine now that they have arrived. To me they are more peach than pink or purple, will be interesting to see how the colour develops or changes as they grow.

In natural light


And up against a normal jadatzi

[Evil Angel]

I've seen these loads of times, in fact sick to death of ebay sellers sending me these, i've even reciieved these when expected jades!! I now have to actually tell people I'm only interested in the proper yellow-shelled and albino-boby jadatzi. These don't look very attractive as older snails imo, the pink apex is out-grown to white and your left with this weird orange shells, albino is recessive gene so possible that the darker dominant genes are slowly breaking through in the gene lines?

[muddydragon]

Wow. i've never seen them before, (which is quite suprising). I'm suprised those sellers didn't get all excited as i did i mean they're beautiful in my opinion but i guess i've never seen what they look like older. The pink tip i've seen before lots, several of mine had pink tips but they were not pink when they were tiny the same as the margie suturalis (the pink tip has gone to white with age - as you can see in the parents, but you see that a lot with older snails who can scuff their shells up a bit on various enrichment in the tank.)

Have you got any pictures of them as adults? i'm really curious i'ld love to see them.
I like weird things

Has anyone else seen/got any that are like this? i'ld really like to know more about them/see adult ones.

[muddydragon]

sorry i replied before your edit.

I was thinking something along those lines may be occuring, these are several generations of jadatzi although the parents were not directly related to each other i do not know exactly how closely related they are as most jadatzi stem from the original breeding program by ness and a few others (i believe) so many jadatzi are probably inbred to an extent.

it's likely it's not a simple dominant/recessive genetic thing (in the case of true dominant recessive it's either the dominant version or it isn't there are no intermediaries - this true state is rare however). you see 'shades' of inheritance in a large number of snails. Jadatzi with dark skin forinstance are rarely as dark as their rodatzi counterparts. i strongly suspect the silver suturalis are due to a cross between dark and albino suturalis at some point in the past. 'normal' fulica crossed with jadatzi seem to produce paler less completely dark brown shelled individuals i believe. also what about the various two tone snails?

There could be several colour influencing genes (such as distribution of pigment or dilution genes seen in other animals) which may vary the apparent colour. this could be a diluted version of the dark shell perhaps? or perhaps the full yellow ones are diluted versions of this?

I suspect it's genetic but what aspect exactly is more than confusing and probably can't be resolved without some fancy genetics.

i'm not even sure of the ploidy of A. fulica (or snails in general) which can also affect things (due to extra copies of genes).
Infact in plants (i'm a plant person really, my knowledge of animal genetics is pretty limited to a few basic examples) increased ploidy can result in a larger size - however i know changing ploidy is much much more difficult in animals.

really we need an animal (pref mollusc) geneticist to wade in on this conversation, they may know more, or an extensive literature search, or someone who just knows a lot about snail genetic inheritance (there must be some lurking out there! ;D

[Evil Angel]

Most of my adults came from ebay, so I always assumed they were just so inbred that new lines had formed from all having the same pink apex genes and it had slowly gotten to the point where the whole shell was an orange-yellow as no good genes had been added to correct it and it had created these strange shells, most ebay people probably thought it was normal (as I say some people even thought they were Jades), and so I questioned their health and I was never keen on them anyway so never let them breed with my Jadatzis and I never kept their eggs either so don't have any examples to show sadly.

I used to breed show quality rats so know a lot about line breeding in colours and how to create colours that arn't even present in the current line and have good knowledge on rat genetics, so much of my ideas on how/why these jadatzis came about is based on that knowledge, but how much of that extends to snails I don't know...

But always thought it must be like how there are the light silver, grey and brown skins of fulica and rodatzi, some of the jadatzi had formed slightly different shell variants, as you can't get 'dark albinos' (as albino means no pigmentation) so Jadatzi could only be albino skin (as anything with pigmentation would be rodatzi), so the only way a good line of jadatzis could mutate is by changing shell colour slightly or starting to throw light rodatzis babies, both made by the same gene being present in both parents over and over until it was strong enough to show through to a noteable extent.

Take the blue rat for instance, it is a 'new' colour, the first pair (to my knowledge) being found in a pet shop. The male was gone by the time the woman returned to buy the pair, but she still took the female, and by breeding with pure black rats (only carry black genes, so babys would take black dominant genes from black father and the other gene would be the blue recessive from the mother) and with a certain amount of line breeding (breeding the blue gene carrying babies back to the mother), she managed to create whole new blue lines, so as far as I am aware, blues were created by a petshop inbreeding rats until a new mutation formed, and someone turned them from a single 'mutant' rat into a whole new form.

Therefore Jadatzi would be the albino-yellow version of fulica, as the blue rats are simply blue forms, then as from blue if you add pink eyes to the genes, it dilutes the coat and gives you silvers, the same thing could happen influencing the 'peach' shells.

So always thought it was the same thing that had happened with the strange jadatzis I recieved, and I therefore never referred to them as jadatzis as always believed jadatzi are yellow-shell+albino-body only, and pigmented skin babies were 'rodatzi', brown shells and albino skin were 'jades', and as they didn't fall in with any of these, in my notes I always called them 'fulica var' as never had a correct name for the mutations I recieved.

My snails were bought about 2 years ago, possibly being relatives of your adults: a very inbred line creating these strange genes, then being sold to various people, again being inbred and sold and then we buy the babies from seperate places assuming they are unrelated but in actual fact they are simply cousins which when bred together reproduce the darker, peachy shells again?

I'm no expert at when it comes to creating different snail forms, but from what I know of rat genetics the above is simply the best conclusion I was ever able to draw...

[muddydragon]

That’s a shame I would have loved to see some pictures of the adults you had!

as for jadatzi the name is used (in my case atleast) to refer usually to any cross between the albino form of the ‘main’ species of A.fulica and the rodatzi form of the subspecies A. fulica hamelli. So when people such as myself refer to dark jadatzi they’re not implying that they are a dark albino simply that it’s some form of cross between the rodatzi form of the subspecies hamelli and the albino form of the ‘normal’ A. fulica (jade) hence jadatzi – literally a splice of the two names. But I know this nonclamature has caused a great deal of trouble down the line hence I try to refer to the rodatzi phenotype from jadatzi lines as dark jadatzi since I would not like people to buy them thinking they are pure rodatzi form of the hamelli subspecies. Jadatzi is not a legitimate species unfortunately some use it to refer to just the albino skin yellow shelled sort, others just any with the albino skin and some (like me) to any form of the cross between jades and rodatzi.
I had always assumed the various shades of skin were likely effected by a variety of different alleles of different genes similar to in axoltols (fascinating stuff I recommend it!): www.axolotl.org/genetics.htm

That is interesting as this is the first time I’ve had light skinned ‘jadatzi’ or as you would say rodatzi (but I like to differentiate the lines) from my ‘full albino’ jadatzi but most do have a ‘two tone’ effect of half darker half lighter (or a strip of darker) on the shell (see parent photos on the jadatzi I have for sale) but it is not that shade of pink. (this is also the first time jet and tully have been bred, in the past the babies were diamond X oromis – both from the original program and not directly related – distantly probably related).

the only way I can see the gene could be present, dominant and made stronger in a line as time goes by but the parents were albinos originally is if the pigmentation gene(s) were repaired by a mechanism in place to repair faulty genes (possible I seem to remember something about snails having some form of mechanism like this to avoid the problems of inbreeding – due to not the best dispersal rate…) but I would expect that to be more sudden unless there were several genes in play , that the promoter was reduced/mutated and hence it was still intact and the promoter started to become stronger, there was something causing destruction of the colour gene mrna which became less effective, TFs were mutated and not the gene itself and these were repaired as above or the epigenetics (folding pattern of the dna to allow preferential access to certain genes) changed. (actually now I write that down that’s a fair few options!) edit: oo or frame shift, the more i think the more options there are (end edit)

Jadatzi are in a way an albino-yellow version of A. fulica but only due to the original crosses to rodatzi (subspecies hamelli). Some try to reintroduce rodatzi to the line to keep the lines stronger (jet for example is a rodatzi X jadatzi showing a rodatzi phenotype but he is what I would call a jadatzi since he is not hamelli he is a jadatzi X rodatzi) but I bred to him to try and improve the genes again.

Jet, Diamond and tully are not highly inbred I know this for certain – they were from a cross between a rodatzi and one of the very first jadatzis from the original breeding program (they’re getting on now they’re not being bred from again). However I cannot speak for pink, dash and stripes. and you are right most probably are highly inbred.

As for the shell I know it has a variety of layers (I don’t know if they’re all pigmented) but perhaps this could be the reinstation of one pigmentation genes for one of the layers but the others remain pale? Or perhaps since they sequester some waste materials in the shell I’ve just fed them too much sweet potato

[muddydragon]

to improve the jadatzi lines i suppose i should have bred jet to a jade and diamond or tully to a rodatzi but the trouble is these for sale could VERY easily be the various colour forms of (what i call jadatzi - i.e. from the cross at somepoint anyway). rather than the original jade type or original rodatzi hamelli sub species. however i don't want to go into the breeding on a big scale i just breed occasionally if i want some offspring to keep and sell on the rest to help fund the hobby. since to be honest the amount i spend on them to get them to the stage where i sell them - heating, food, millions of types of calcium, vit D is often more than i sell them for

[muddydragon]

So i've been doing a bit of back research into Jet, Diamond and Tully. Tully X stripes have the most pink offspring, diamond X pink (his name - not actually pink) have a couple of pink offspring. Jet X dash have no pink offspring.

Jet Diamond and tully are not inbred jadatzi (the ancestors pre - jadatzi are likely inbred to an extent as with almost all snails in the pet trade) this would be their pedigree:


pedigree' explanation i call any cross between true rodatzi and true jade "jadatzi" and the (W +Y) etc is W = white B = black Y=yellow shell

I do not know the history of stripes, dash and pink. (jet, diamond, tully were born early 2009). i suspect i've had stripes, dash and pink (as babies) since 2010 early 2011 at the latest. i'm pretty sure i got them before i hatched and sold diamond X oromis the first time. worst case scenario would be that they are offspring of offspring of "others unknown 2" as i doubt there would be time for many more generations after that.

So one side of parents could be highly inbred but the other side is not. and begs the question. why so prevalent in stripes X tully, not common in Diamond X pink and not atall in Jet X dash?

[muddydragon]

I'm just checking up on this - this is what i gleaned from old posts and emails but i would not have thought that the original jade X rodatzi would have produced any albino individuals (so i'm just enquiring about this but i cannot be certain when i will get a reply)