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Post by sparrow on Sept 29, 2014 13:26:14 GMT
Hi, Posted a few weeks back that Snagglepuss (Cepaea normalis) was not eating properly and had been rasping on his shell. The shell is becoming more and more white (not from rasping) and I am quite worried as this does not seem to bode well for him. I removed him from his 5 gallon tank and placed him in a smaller container with only Romaine on the bottom, broccoli, cucumber and sprinkled calcium everywhere. I know they can absorb the calcium through their skin and since he has not visibly touched his calcium for quite a while, considering this "intensive care" for a few days. I rarely find any poop, which verifies he is not eating. The only thing I KNOW he will eat without fail is sweet potato, but because that interferes with calcium absorption, I am hesitant to give him any in his condition. It's a Catch-22 and I really am at my wits end. I have tried every imaginable fruit and veggie and don't know what else to try.
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Post by etana on Sept 29, 2014 15:06:16 GMT
I rarely find any poop, which verifies he is not eating. The only thing I KNOW he will eat without fail is sweet potato, but because that interferes with calcium absorption, I am hesitant to give him any in his condition. It does? I had no idea. My Cepaeas' shells are getting white as well, but otherwisely I'm not seeing the problems you are. How old is Snaggle? I hope someone here can help you.
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Post by cliath on Sept 29, 2014 15:28:43 GMT
I also had no idea that sweet potato interfered with calcium absorption. Perhaps you could rub a bit of vegetable based oil in his shell. That's how I brighten up the shells of my deceased snails. As for the food problem, if you stop feeding sweet potato he will have to eat something. You could also try snail mash, a mixture of squished fruit and veg. Some people add soaked porridge, but there's mixed feelings on that
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Sept 29, 2014 15:31:56 GMT
Can you post some photo's of Snaggle puss's shell it may just be that its natural fading which is something that some of the wild caught Cepaea's from the sand dunes have which I've got here. If so it certainly seems to be pretty normal, even the ones i find wild in the hedges here on the farm and at my friends farm the other side of the country have these whitish patches. So as I'm seeing this from various places I think that its something linked more to age than lack of calcium. At my friends farm there predominantly on chalk so the snails there have plenty of calcium in there diet. Likewise my one here do as I scatter the old broken bits of the cuttle fish around the farm where I know the snails hang out. All the snails are happy and healthy just some have this faded white on there shell's. You could try rubbing a small amount of coconut oil on his shell, I often do this with a GAL that I have who has a damaged shell and it seems to work.
Personally as Ive been seeing this for a number of years and have had some wild caught adult Cepaea's with this for several years and it hasn't got markedly worse and they aren't ill from the effects I just make sure they have a consonant calcium supply and a good varied diet.
Re him not eating what other things have you tried him with, Mine love carrots, Parsnips and Squashes as well as Sweet Corn. Other than that have you tried any snail mixes?
I've not come cross any info re the sweet potato and would love to have a link to that information if pos please, because as far as I know it doesn't interfere with calcium absorption.
All the years I've had snails they have always had sweet potato and its something they all love to eat. they have all grown normal healthy well shaped and sized shell's. When I initially really looked into food stuffs for snails I spoke with quite a few people who kept them including a vet here who has them, everyone said that Sweet potato was a good food source for them. If its not a good food source I'd really like to know as I will defiantly look into finding another main staple for there diet.
Zorst
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Post by malacophile on Sept 29, 2014 15:46:16 GMT
The idea that sweet potato interferes with calcium absorption comes from the fact that it contains oxalates. While oxalates do indeed do this to a degree, the levels in sweet potato are NOT high enough to be of any concern. Many of the foods we feed our snails, and those they eat in the wild, are significantly higher in oxalates. For instance, kale, spinach and other greens- even lettuce. Wild greens like dandelion are higher still, yet they consume these foods regularly without issue. It's fine to feed Snaggle sweet potato. If that's all he'll eat, let him have it.
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Sept 29, 2014 19:34:43 GMT
PHEW!!! And thanks for that explanation Malacophile much appreciated.
Zorst
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Post by sparrow on Sept 29, 2014 21:13:49 GMT
Snaggle is about two years old. I am hesitant to put any oil on his shell, since the first time I tried, some time back, he started rasping his shell. He's currently hanging upside down under a leaf and can't get a photo of him, but will post as soon as he moves around. Interesting you mention the sand dunes, as the place we found Snaggle is in fact a natural sand bar surrounded by ocean and bay. There is topsoil of course, but no bedrock, only sand. The outer color layer is peeling off. When I clean his tank and give him a little shower with a spray bottle, it is easy to see the shell's thin top layer lifting. He used to gobble RepCal calcium to the point I was worried he was eating too much: www.repcal.com/supp.htm#Calcium - he started ignoring it the beginning of this year. I also give calcium citrate powder (100% pure and dairy free) on occasion and after he nibbled at it once, ignored it thereafter. He will not touch cuttlebone. This is a list of the varieties I've tried with Snaggle; "(no)" after a listing means he will not touch it: Romaine, red leaf lettuce, banana (loves it) kale (no), spinach (no), broccoli, cauliflower (no), carrots, apple, pear (no), nectarine (no), peach (no), plum (no), strawberry (no), blueberry (no), peas (no), sweet corn (frozen and fresh (no)) zucchini (no), squash (no), orange (no), dandelion (no), sunflower seeds (no), cantaloupe, watermelon (no), cucumber (loves it), honeydew, tomato and of course sweet potato, which he will always eat. If I want to wake him up, all I need do is put a sweet potato near him and he's up and about in no time. Also keep a full red cabbage leaf or two in the tank that he likes to hide under. One leaf actually rooted and that is his fav place to hang out. I am very glad to hear the sweet potato is not a problem, since that and cucumber are the only things he will eat on a regular basis and cucumber has little nutritional value. A friend dropped off apple tree branches for us after pruning their trees about 2 weeks ago and Snaggle was very happy with that, rasping off every foliose lichen he could find. A branch as thick as my forefinger was stripped bare over night. I've tried keeping the remaining branches moist enough to keep the lichen alive and although some of the branches are sprouting leaves, the lichens are not surviving. Is it possible he prefers wood to fruit and veggies? He rarely digs into the soil anymore (organic potting soil) and actually avoids it as best he can. Thank you for all your responses.
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Post by etana on Sept 30, 2014 5:08:29 GMT
Two questions: Does he ever aestivate, and does he get to eat animal protein?
Zorst, how old do you find Cepaeas can live?
Also: thanks very much for the sweet potato explanation, Malacophile!!!
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Sept 30, 2014 11:23:51 GMT
I've read and been told they can live for anything up to 15 yrs. I've had some that were wild caught by me 7 yrs ago as adults with faded patches on there fully developed shells so you could prob realistically add 2 yrs age to that making them around 9 yrs.
They still have the faded patches on there shells and once in a while some of the top layer may still peal back, kinda like humans can get on there fingernails from time to time.
So the pattern isn't shiny as it was it kinda has a whitish bloom to it. I honestly put it down to natural wear as I've got other wild caught snails from different areas and captive bred snails over about 2 to 3 yrs old. As I said before they are all fit well and healthy and it doesn't bother them.
Zorst
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Post by sparrow on Sept 30, 2014 12:32:02 GMT
Two questions: Does he ever aestivate, and does he get to eat animal protein? Zorst, how old do you find Cepaeas can live? Also: thanks very much for the sweet potato explanation, Malacophile!!! 1. Not really - at the most two days with no movement. He sleeps exposed and only once or twice withdrew completely inside his shell. 2. I've never knowingly fed him any sort of animal protein. Please explain. (I've read Cepaeas can live up to 15 years in captivity.)
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Post by sparrow on Sept 30, 2014 12:54:09 GMT
I've read and been told they can live for anything up to 15 yrs. I've had some that were wild caught by me 7 yrs ago as adults with faded patches on there fully developed shells so you could prob realistically add 2 yrs age to that making them around 9 yrs. They still have the faded patches on there shells and once in a while some of the top layer may still peal back, kinda like humans can get on there fingernails from time to time. So the pattern isn't shiny as it was it kinda has a whitish bloom to it. I honestly put it down to natural wear as I've got other wild caught snails from different areas and captive bred snails over about 2 to 3 yrs old. As I said before they are all fit well and healthy and it doesn't bother them. Zorst His shell was beautiful and shiny and yes, it's more of a peeling of the outer layer. More like nail polish peeling off rather than a fungal cause. I check him completely at least once a week. Gave him a chunk of sweet potato last night and he hasn't left it since adding it. Sleeping on it now. I guess he wants to make sure it doesn't disappear! The peeling starts at the apex and has affected all the spires.
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Post by sparrow on Sept 30, 2014 14:19:03 GMT
Update... Right after taking the above photo, I found my little Snaggle had moved over to the apple slice and was rasping happily away. He moved on to rasping small apple branches I cut into small finger-sized pieces (soaked in spring water overnight). Then, of all things and for the very first time, he munched on the orange slice for at least 10 minutes. He's now back rasping the little branches. Two days ago, I put new soil in his tank, primed it, moved it to a northeast room (previously in a southwest room), put a 9 watt pet heating pad half-way under the back side of the tank (to provide humidity rather than heat) and put the tank under a 15" fluorescent wall-mounted plant light that is about 18" away from the top of the tank. Yesterday afternoon, I took him out of "intensive care" (small container completely laced with calcium - couldn't avoid slithering over it), kept the light on for 8 hours and turned it back on this morning. All the activity started right after I disturbed him when I took the above photo. He'll likely sleep for a day after this sudden burst of eating. I'm completely baffled, but definitely pleased.
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Sept 30, 2014 21:05:20 GMT
From what I can see from your photo of Snaggle, its exactly the same as the fading that some of my snails here have in which case honestly I feel its normal for the as Ive had some many wild caught ones with it all from different areas. It hasn't effected any of the snails here in any way they are all happy , healthy and eat both there food and the calcium from the cuttle fish bone.
Some I have noted do bury themselves and aestivate and others seem to just sleep for a few days whilst others just kinda hang out on the sides of the tanks or wood n kinda doze for a few days at a time half in n half outta there shells. I feel its down to the individual snails really.
I cant post any pictures of my snails shells to show you until my new photo card for my camera arrives.
Zorst
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Post by etana on Oct 1, 2014 4:28:51 GMT
Sparrow, what I mean by animal protein is this: Many snails who are mostly vegetarian will eat a little bit of rotting meat if they come across it. Of course we don't want actual rotting meat in our tanks, so a way to simulate this is to give something like this about once a week or so: - boiled egg (I forget if egg white or yolk is better because I don't really use this one) - soaked kitty/pup food (no wheat, sugar or salt, soak in water for at least 30 mins so it's soft and nice, drain the water) - soaked fish flakes that have vitamin d. I've been giving my Cepaeas kitten food and they're very interested n it, almost everything disappears overnight Also with such little snails, if you can get a pet store owner to give you a free sample bag, even that will last forever because one single piece of food is a lot for a Cepaea snailie.
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Post by cliath on Oct 1, 2014 5:30:22 GMT
I can post pics of some of my cepaea with white patches on their shells, if it would help?
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Oct 1, 2014 9:43:33 GMT
Yes the protein Etana mentions does help and mine get some at least a couple of times a month sometimes its ct biscuits soaked, sometimes eggs and once in a while the bone with some bits of meat left on it from a roast ( this is meat that hasn't been seasoned in anyway) the last one they love rasping on both the little bits of meat and the bone. I only leave these in for a day or over night then remove.There is both calcium and natural oils etc in the bone and you can defiantly see some of the rasp marks on the actual bone as well as the small bits of meat remaining.
Cliath that would be great if you could post some pictures of the white on your Cepaea's shell's please.
Zorst
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Post by etana on Oct 1, 2014 13:28:57 GMT
I too will get photos of my Cepaeas, if any whose shells are becoming white are sleeping in plain view. Don't want to wake up any aestivating/hibernating ones that have dug a hole for themselves.
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Post by sparrow on Oct 1, 2014 16:12:23 GMT
Sparrow, what I mean by animal protein is this: Many snails who are mostly vegetarian will eat a little bit of rotting meat if they come across it. Of course we don't want actual rotting meat in our tanks, so a way to simulate this is to give something like this about once a week or so: - boiled egg (I forget if egg white or yolk is better because I don't really use this one) - soaked kitty/pup food (no wheat, sugar or salt, soak in water for at least 30 mins so it's soft and nice, drain the water) - soaked fish flakes that have vitamin d. I've been giving my Cepaeas kitten food and they're very interested n it, almost everything disappears overnight Also with such little snails, if you can get a pet store owner to give you a free sample bag, even that will last forever because one single piece of food is a lot for a Cepaea snailie. No, they certainly don't eat too much and in a way that's good as it insures I get my fresh fruit and veggies too. Which brand of kitty food are you using? I have had heard of giving soaked kitty or puppy food and dog biscuits. The first time I looked at the dog biscuits ingredients, every single one had sugar listed - I wonder if people even realize what they are feeding their pups... I have two cats and kitten food would not be wasted if Snaggle turns his antenna away from it. I don't feed foods with wheat, sugar or salt to my kitties, either. Not good for any pet. OT: In the EU, I never had trouble finding preservative free food for my cats, but stateside, everything is a mess as there are no limits on preservatives or artificial colouring. What really shocked me was the difference in Royal Canin ingredients - in the EU, it's a short list with no added this or that. In the US, the ingredient list takes up 3 inches of the bag. Thank you!
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Post by sparrow on Oct 1, 2014 16:15:42 GMT
I too will get photos of my Cepaeas, if any whose shells are becoming white are sleeping in plain view. Don't want to wake up any aestivating/hibernating ones that have dug a hole for themselves. That will be helpful. Thank you.
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Post by etana on Oct 1, 2014 16:35:41 GMT
I've been offering them Royal Canin Kitten, "up to 12 months", it comes in a pink/white bag. So far a single snail I have hasn't turned away from it. The first inter-species fights between snails I saw were over this stuff. Indeed its ingredient list is quite simple (and yes it IS weird that some cat/dog food contains sugar and salt and colourings and whatever that the animals really couldn't care less about!!). The small pieces are nice, a single Cepaea will eat max a half of it in once sitting, but perhaps return to it the next day and finish it, as they don't go bad too quickly for that. And yeah I'm in Finland, EU. Now for some Photobucketing.
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Post by etana on Oct 1, 2014 16:48:34 GMT
Two of my Cepaeas with fading colours, sleeping inside a big plastic strawberry. Also featured: a young Arianta with a weird shell. The upper snail in the photo has baby snail poop on him, but I don't think the babies have done this. These guys sleep a lot these days, but I find them eating the cuttlebone if they wake up. I'll be interested in seeing Cliath's snails, as well.
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Oct 1, 2014 18:00:31 GMT
Yep that's exactly the same as my lots shells.
Zorst
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Oct 1, 2014 18:05:07 GMT
Also if you can't find any kitten food etc with out any additives, wheat or salt you could try some meat from your own dinner or some plain cooked ground beef. Just a very small amount, go for grass reared if you can as the animal wont then be full of antibiotics etc. Also unless free range organic stay away from chicken again due to what its been fed.
Zorst
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Post by cliath on Oct 1, 2014 20:08:13 GMT
Right I'll get round to posting pics tomorrow hopefully . Although etana showed it well too
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Post by sparrow on Oct 2, 2014 20:06:52 GMT
I've been offering them Royal Canin Kitten, "up to 12 months", it comes in a pink/white bag. So far a single snail I have hasn't turned away from it. The first inter-species fights between snails I saw were over this stuff. Indeed its ingredient list is quite simple (and yes it IS weird that some cat/dog food contains sugar and salt and colourings and whatever that the animals really couldn't care less about!!). The small pieces are nice, a single Cepaea will eat max a half of it in once sitting, but perhaps return to it the next day and finish it, as they don't go bad too quickly for that. And yeah I'm in Finland, EU. Now for some Photobucketing. My cats grew up on Royal Canin kitten in the EU and much to my dismay, checked the ingredients in the US: Ingredients: Brewers rice, chicken by-product meal, corn gluten meal, wheat gluten, chicken fat, corn, egg product, natural flavors, dried plain beet pulp, powdered cellulose, fish oil, vegetable oil, sodium silico aluminate, grain distillers dried yeast, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, psyllium seed husk, salt, fructooligosaccharides, taurine, hydrolyzed yeast, L-lysine, choline chloride, magnesium oxide, vitamins (DL-alpha tocopherol acetate (source of vitamin E), L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), niacin supplement, biotin, riboflavin supplement, D-calcium pantothenate, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), vitamin B12 supplement, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement), marigold extract (Tagetes erecta L.), trace minerals (zinc proteinate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate, manganese proteinate, manganous oxide, copper sulfate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite, copper proteinate), L-carnitine, rosemary extract, preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid Does your bag read the same? I wouldn't feed this to Snaggle...
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