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Post by sparrow on Oct 2, 2014 20:13:50 GMT
Two of my Cepaeas with fading colours, sleeping inside a big plastic strawberry. Also featured: a young Arianta with a weird shell. The upper snail in the photo has baby snail poop on him, but I don't think the babies have done this. These guys sleep a lot these days, but I find them eating the cuttlebone if they wake up. I'll be interested in seeing Cliath's snails, as well. Looks the same as Snaggle's shell, where the peeling (not fading) has occurred. Thank you for the photo. As long as it's not effecting the health, I can relax.
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Post by sparrow on Oct 2, 2014 20:25:52 GMT
Also if you can't find any kitten food etc with out any additives, wheat or salt you could try some meat from your own dinner or some plain cooked ground beef. Just a very small amount, go for grass reared if you can as the animal wont then be full of antibiotics etc. Also unless free range organic stay away from chicken again due to what its been fed. Zorst Frankly, I don't trust any food labels in the US. There is much controversy over what can be labeled as "organic" or "free-range" here. Too many loopholes in the laws that allow the use of the term "organic." Never had this problem in Bulgaria - everything was natural and from local villages. What am I doing here?!
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Post by morningcoffee on Oct 2, 2014 20:47:12 GMT
Does your bag read the same? I wouldn't feed this to Snaggle... I really wouldn't be happy giving it to cats either with the first two ingredients being brewers rice and chicken by-product meal!!
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Oct 2, 2014 21:14:40 GMT
Ugh I wouldn't feed that to any of my animals, chicken by product meal often contains feathers feet skin etc. One reason I don't feed biscuits or pellets unless I know where there from n how there made, that even go's for the horses and livestock here.
The only kitten biscuits I feed anything are organic and part of a specialist veterinary diet, I spent several yrs working as a vets assistant so got a visit to where it was produced and know what go's into it. I'd not normally feed it as its so expensive but I managed to get some free samples for a kitten I rescued and had some left over.
Sparrow you could try a local farmers market as they often have small holders who know exactly what there stock etc are fed. I know when i lived in the US there were several of the markets in and around the cities I visited, so it may be worth checking out.
Zorst
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Post by morningcoffee on Oct 2, 2014 21:42:22 GMT
Ugh I wouldn't feed that to any of my animals, chicken by product meal often contains feathers feet skin etc. One reason I don't feed biscuits or pellets unless I know where there from n how there made, that even go's for the horses and livestock here. It's really shocking isn't it?! No wonder so many cats start to suffer with obesity, diabetes, kidney problems etc etc etc as they get older. Some of the commercially-available cat foods (especially the dry foods) are like a human eating nothing but fast-food burgers for every meal for years. If the main source of animal protein in a food is "chicken by-product meal" then yeah, that's an immediate no-no (especially if the protein ingredient comes SECOND on the list after brewers rice which is pure filler with next to no nutritional value)! As you say it's made up of all the bits of birds that cats wouldn't even eat in the wild like beaks, feet, feathers, undeveloped eggs etc. Really nasty Not good for cats and I wouldn't give it to snails either. The only kitten biscuits I feed anything are organic and part of a specialist veterinary diet, I spent several yrs working as a vets assistant so got a visit to where it was produced and know what go's into it. I'd not normally feed it as its so expensive but I managed to get some free samples for a kitten I rescued and had some left over. My puss has Orijen dry food - very pricey but the ingredients are excellent. High in protein, a good fat content, and low in carbs. I really think a good, appropriate diet is soooo important in cats (and dogs!). Anyway, to get back onto the actual topic XD sparrow, many of my Cepaea have shells exactly like your photo. I've never thought it was anything to worry about - their shells don't seem thin at all and they're all happy and healthy. With regards to letting them eat bark & lichen, mine go crazy for it too. From what I've observed in the wild, Cepaea often seem to spend time higher up than other snails like Helix aspersa etc. I've frequently seen them in the wild climbing up tree trunks or high in the branches and so I think bark and lichen are probably quite large parts of their natural diet in areas with plenty of trees. I let mine have twigs/branches with plenty of lichen on regularly - I submerge them in water and soak them in the sink overnight first to remove any nasties that are attached. This is going to sound bizarre but you can actually make formulas to grow your own lichens on a surface like wood or stone outside. lichenlovers.org/lichen_growth_formula.phtml
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Post by etana on Oct 3, 2014 3:27:18 GMT
Does your bag read the same? I wouldn't feed this to Snaggle... I'll type it out for you. Here goes... Composition: Dehydrated poultry protein, rice, animal fats, maize, vegetable protein isolate (protein selected for its very high assimilation), maize gluten, hydrolysed animal proteins, vegetable fibres, beet pulp, minerals, fish oil, yeasts, soya oil, fructo-oligo-saccharides, hydrolysed yeast (source of manno-olico-saccharides), marigold extract (source of lutein). Additives: Vitamin A, vitamin D3, iron, iodine, copper, manganese, zinc. Preservatives: Antioxidants. Really shockingly different to the ingredient list you posted. I'd like to hear comments about this list, too.
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Oct 3, 2014 4:42:03 GMT
One of the reasons that Cepaea like to climb so high into trees is they are after the Aphids which is a protein source to them. Its also one of the reasons I allow them in my Polly tunnels and veg beds, sure I loose a few plants but mostly they keep the Aphids IE Green , black and white fly away.
I just plant a few extra pants to feed them as well, hey it works well. I collect the other snails and slugs well the rug rats do an they are returned safely to the wild away from where we grow the food. By working with nature and wild life it means that I don't have to use any pesticides etc and I'm currently inundated with good veg.
Zorst
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Post by morningcoffee on Oct 3, 2014 8:45:41 GMT
I'll type it out for you. Here goes... Composition: Dehydrated poultry protein, rice, animal fats, maize, vegetable protein isolate (protein selected for its very high assimilation), maize gluten, hydrolysed animal proteins, vegetable fibres, beet pulp, minerals, fish oil, yeasts, soya oil, fructo-oligo-saccharides, hydrolysed yeast (source of manno-olico-saccharides), marigold extract (source of lutein). Additives: Vitamin A, vitamin D3, iron, iodine, copper, manganese, zinc. Preservatives: Antioxidants. Really shockingly different to the ingredient list you posted. I'd like to hear comments about this list, too. It should be fine for snails in small quantities on occasion but I wouldn't give this one to cats either! Ingredient list on my cat's food (Orijen Chicken Cat & Kitten) - Fresh chicken meat (20%), dried chicken meat (15%), fresh chicken liver (4%), fresh herring (4%), fresh turkey (4%), dried turkey (4%), fresh turkey liver (3%), fresh eggs (3%), fresh boneless zander (3%), fresh salmon meat (3%), fresh poultry hearts (3%), poultry cartilage (3%), dried herring (3%), salmon (3%), poultry liver oil (3%), poultry liver fat (2%), red lentils, green peas, green lentils, alfalfa, yam, pea fibre, chickpeas, pumpkin, butternut squash, spinach leaves, carrots, Red Delicious apples, Bartlett pears, cranberries, seaweed, liquorice root, angelica root, fennel, marigold, sweet fennel, peppermint leaves, camomile, dandelion, savoury, rosemary. Meat delivered fresh - free from preservatives and never frozen. Nutritional additives: Vitamin A (15,000 IU/kg), vitamin D3 (2,000 IU/kg), iron (40 mg/kg), iodine (3 mg/kg), copper (13 mg/kg), manganese (14 mg/kg), zinc (150 mg/kg), selenium (0,3 mg/kg). Preservatives: Vitamin E. One of the reasons that Cepaea like to climb so high into trees is they are after the Aphids which is a protein source to them. Its also one of the reasons I allow them in my Polly tunnels and veg beds, sure I loose a few plants but mostly they keep the Aphids IE Green , black and white fly away. That is very interesting, I had no idea that they would eat aphids! My streptocarpus plants have suffered terribly with greenfly this year. Perhaps next year I'll let the snails have a day trip to climb on them
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Oct 3, 2014 9:00:21 GMT
Worth a shot, they certainly helped with my Black fly and Carrot fly problems this year in the poly tunnel. I let a few loose in there and after the initial problem on the plants they pretty much cleared the plants of them.
I wasn't aware of it either until a friend who's a scientist and has done research into this told me about it, so I took a chance in the poly tunnel last year with a bit of success, this year i let loose about 20 snails n hoped n prayed that some of my veg survived. It did and the aphid n carrot fly problem was bought under control very quickly.
When the number of the snails became to much I just had the rug rats collect them over several days along with there young. Some went back to the tank and others got released at snail safe and friendly places around the farm.
I noticed the other day I still have a few guarding my tomato's as they finish ripening lol.
Zorst
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Post by etana on Oct 3, 2014 12:31:49 GMT
I'll type it out for you. Here goes... Composition: Dehydrated poultry protein, rice, animal fats, maize, vegetable protein isolate (protein selected for its very high assimilation), maize gluten, hydrolysed animal proteins, vegetable fibres, beet pulp, minerals, fish oil, yeasts, soya oil, fructo-oligo-saccharides, hydrolysed yeast (source of manno-olico-saccharides), marigold extract (source of lutein). Additives: Vitamin A, vitamin D3, iron, iodine, copper, manganese, zinc. Preservatives: Antioxidants. Really shockingly different to the ingredient list you posted. I'd like to hear comments about this list, too. It should be fine for snails in small quantities on occasion but I wouldn't give this one to cats either! Thank you very much. I've been offering well soaked bits of this about once a week - less than one piece per a small snail, and one or two for my big snail (my only big Achatina). The big snail would eat much more of this if I let him. I'll be looking into getting better quality kitten food then, a good thing snails need so little that it doesn't hurt my wallet much even if I can't get a free bag next time. Today I spotted a bag that said "no fillers, no salt, no sugar, no wheat!" on it which looked quite promising.
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Post by morningcoffee on Oct 3, 2014 12:54:47 GMT
I'll be looking into getting better quality kitten food then, a good thing snails need so little that it doesn't hurt my wallet much even if I can't get a free bag next time. Today I spotted a bag that said "no fillers, no salt, no sugar, no wheat!" on it which looked quite promising. Brands that I'd consider decent quality are Orijen, Purizon, Taste of the Wild, Acana. Arden Grange is OK too but not as good as the others. If you look online (eBay is good) you can often find small "trial size" bags of these foods, usually 300g - 400g, so they're cheaper and should still go a long way for snails.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2014 14:37:48 GMT
Caracol has had the exact same problem. I spray their tank with a Calcium and Magnesium supplement and it seems to be working. The Calcium level is high and the Magnesium level is fairly low. I spray it 3 times in the dirt and cover the sides of the talk with the mist. My snails immediately start cleaning the side of the glass until all the watery mist is gone. I find that it has also helped with shell development. I have been using this thing for months now and it doesn't seem to have any negative side effects on them at all. Caracol's stripping has started going away and even when it starts coming off again, it always grows back. I hope this helped, you can try it.
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Post by muddydragon on Oct 4, 2014 10:00:05 GMT
small amounts of salt are not a problem (which it appears likely that it is in that case) although i must say there is an awful lot of stuff in that!
If you're worried about additives you could just feed some boiled egg (not saying there wont be things in that too... but it should be better)
I tend to mix limestone flour in ith my substrate to reduce acidity, i can't say for sure if it helps with loss of outer shell layers but it certainly does no harm
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Post by sparrow on Oct 5, 2014 13:25:32 GMT
Not shocking, but absolutely disgraceful. I get sick to my stomach reading ingredient lists here. Not only the pets who get fat from all this garbage the US allows in the food... When I left Bulgaria, I weighed 54 kilos, now, 2 years later I weigh 68 kilos. ALL the food has preservatives, artificial this and that and trash we wouldn't feed any farm animal or pet with in Bulgaria. I get so disgusted with what goes on here and most Americans are clueless as to what is going into their systems and their pets' stomachs.
Thank you for the tip on Orijen. My favorite supplier here has it. www.chewy.com/s/orijen?dept=cat
My cousin recently brought me dozens of freshly cut branches from apple and cherry trees that have been washed, cut into smaller pieces and put in several large vases for a couple weeks now. About a dozen have sprouted leaves and a couple are actually rooting. I take a couple pieces each day and soak them over night in spring water and then put them in the tank. Snaggle absolutely loves them.
The Cepaea preference for height, that you pointed out, likely explains why I have never been able to find any mates for Snaggle! I've been looking under branches, fallen leaves, etc... on the ground, instead of the mid and upper sections of trees. Which also explains why they don't burrow in as often as other snails. The only time Snaggle burrowed was when he first matured and laid a bunch of eggs. He normally stays at the top of the tank or under his rooted red cabbage leaf.
NOT at all bizarre!!! I went crazy about a month ago looking for a method for growing lichens! If you were here, I would kiss you!!!
Thank you, sooo much!
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Post by sparrow on Oct 5, 2014 13:30:23 GMT
Caracol has had the exact same problem. I spray their tank with a Calcium and Magnesium supplement and it seems to be working. The Calcium level is high and the Magnesium level is fairly low. I spray it 3 times in the dirt and cover the sides of the talk with the mist. My snails immediately start cleaning the side of the glass until all the watery mist is gone. I find that it has also helped with shell development. I have been using this thing for months now and it doesn't seem to have any negative side effects on them at all. Caracol's stripping has started going away and even when it starts coming off again, it always grows back. I hope this helped, you can try it. Can you send a link to the brand you are using? My head is swimming from looking for good products.
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Post by etana on Oct 5, 2014 13:32:37 GMT
Sparrow beat me to it, I'd be very interested in hearing what exactly Missjuniper is using. I think this is a particularly good thread, so much information about shell condition, cat food, living conditions, even lichen - I wish as many Cepaea owners as possible would find this!
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Oct 5, 2014 13:57:51 GMT
I'm lucky as the air is so clean here Lichen grows in abundance on everything, just like moss does as well so when its windy its blown out the trees in big lumps and I just gather it up and wash it then put it in the snail tanks. Ive also a lot of fruit trees here so they regularly get apple, cherry n pear wood. Def like the idea of the limestone flour in the substructure to control the acidity. I'll look into getting some n trying that.
Zorst
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Post by sparrow on Oct 5, 2014 13:58:06 GMT
Now for the good part!
This thread has been extremely helpful and I sincerely thank everyone who responded. I do love this forum!
It seems it was the location of the tank that was causing Snagglepuss' inactivity and his refusal to eat anything I put in the tank.
Previously, the tank was about 3 feet away from a west window on the dining room table, thinking the late afternoon sun was good for him. (We only have west and north exposure.) At night, there are street lights that shine through the window and Snaggle was never in total darkness.
Now the tank is about 5 feet up, under a full-spectrum plant light that I turn on in the morning and turn off at dusk, with the tank in total darkness throughout the night. When I turn off the light, I turn on the 9 watt heating pad under the rear portion of the tank, put the glass lid on and let the tank get steamy. Before I go to bed, I turn off the heating pad and remove the glass lid when I awake.
Only a few days like this and the difference in his activity is astounding. Now, Snaggle is awake in the early morning (normal for a Cepaea), climbing all over the branches, munching on EVERYTHING in the tank and eating foods he never touched before and eating ones he hasn't touched for literally months. He stays awake until around noon and then climbs to the top of the tank and sleeps.
I think the problem was not being in total darkness overnight and the poor little guy was confused. It seems the plant light is of more value to Snaggle than it is to my plants.
As for his shell, I want to thank everyone again for reassuring me this is normal.
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Oct 5, 2014 14:45:12 GMT
LOL Great picture I love it and so glad that you got a lot of Snaggles problems sorted out.
Zorst
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 15:50:43 GMT
It's this one. It leaves white specs on the glass and my snails clean it off. I've been using it for months and even used it for my baby snails (when I had them). They grew super fast and their shells were really strong. I'm not sure how much it cost now.
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Post by etana on Oct 6, 2014 5:58:48 GMT
missjuniper, the bottle reads "helps to prevent bone loss", so is this a product originally for humans or some pet mammals? This thread inspired me to pick up a branch with lichen on it from outside, wash it in hot water, and offer it to my snails. Sure enough, my Cepaea are having a party on it. I think both the lichen and the wood are getting eaten.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 11:39:20 GMT
missjuniper, the bottle reads "helps to prevent bone loss", so is this a product originally for humans or some pet mammals? This thread inspired me to pick up a branch with lichen on it from outside, wash it in hot water, and offer it to my snails. Sure enough, my Cepaea are having a party on it. I think both the lichen and the wood are getting eaten. Originally for humans. I still find that it works great as long as you only use one pill. I still ocatinally spray my tank with regular water, just to take a break from all that fancy stuff. *I have heard that Calcium is better obsorbed with a bit of Magnesium.
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Post by sparrow on Oct 6, 2014 18:03:48 GMT
It's this one. It leaves white specs on the glass and my snails clean it off. I've been using it for months and even used it for my baby snails (when I had them). They grew super fast and their shells were really strong. I'm not sure how much it cost now. There are likely hundreds of posts in these forums regarding calcium and honestly, the only thing I am absolutely, positively certain of is that snails need it!
I don't know if anyone ever provided the following link before, but certainly worth a repeat if already posted:
www.advocatehealth.com/bromenn/documents/orthopedics/Types%20of%20Calcium.pdf
And another item to add to further confusion:
What is the difference between total calcium and elemental calcium?
"The amount of elemental calcium is the number to use. During digestion, the elemental calcium is released from the compound (carbonate, citrate) and becomes available for absorption. Calcium carbonate provides 40 percent elemental calcium; the other 60 percent is the carbonate ingredient. Therefore, 600 milligrams (mg) of calcium carbonate provides 240 mg elemental calcium. Calcium citrate is 20 percent elemental calcium; 600 mg of calcium citrate provides 120 mg elemental calcium. The number that is part of the brandname (such as Caltrate 600, Os-Cal 500 and TUMS 500 Extra Strength) usually indicates the amount of elemental calcium in each tablet or pill. But you should read the label to be certain.
A USP (United States Pharmacopeia) symbol on the label means that the calcium supplement is free of lead and other metals. It also meets standards for quantity of elemental calcium in the tablet and how well it dissolves. The application for this symbol is voluntary, so a product may be acceptable even if it does not display this symbol.
Test your supplement by putting it in a glass of clear vinegar. Stir occasionally. If it dissolves within 30 minutes, it should do so in your stomach too!" Anyone reading this post, please try the calcium test above, with whichever brand, type, etc... you are using for your snail. I'm curious to read the results.
Someone recently suggested Calcium Citrate as opposed to Calcium Carbonate and I have been alternating using both.
In one of the articles about snails I came across yesterday, it stated, Magnesium "is believed to retard calcium absorption".
The above linked .pdf article states we should avoid oyster shell calcium as it may contain high amounts of lead, etc... (Read between the smilies!)
I don't know what to believe anymore, so going to stick with the Rep-Cal Calcium (carbonate - 100% ground oyster shells) and Swanson's "100% Pure and Dairy-Free Calcium Citrate Powder", which has absolutely no added ingredients and is more readily absorbed, albeit in smaller amounts than calcium carbonate. It's not easy being an overly neurotic fuss budget, THAT I know with absolute certainty!
Whatever, it's so nice to see Snaggle up and about when I awake, nibbling away and investigating his little world again and it had nothing to do with calcium - it was his lighting situation. Amazing...
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Post by etana on Oct 6, 2014 18:49:24 GMT
Huh, interesting, Sparrow. I've managed to avoid all confusion around calcium supplements by being persistent with the good old natural cuttlebone. All of my snails eat it, both wild caught and captive bred. The small babies obviously learn it by looking at the bigger ones, and some adults appear to learn from their friends too, but some other adults I've had to teach. Thus far, I haven't done it with enough many snails to draw any huge final conclusions, but I've done this: - Rub finger in snail's favourite food, let snail nibble on finger - Scrape cuttlebone with own fingernail that still tastes of snail food, let snail nibble on finger again and get calcium powder in his face - Rub cuttlebone in the same snail food and put it in front of snail - Cross fingers and toes and wait patiently for a few hours In one case I used dilute beer, I've also used kitten food taste, that kind of thing, anything that they get really drawn to. After a few hours, snails that hadn't paid attention to cuttlebone (or like my big Achatina, just pushed it around like a slimy bulldozer instead of rasping it) have been eating it very eagerly, and never needed me to add the good taste on it again either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 19:22:19 GMT
Interesting. I will stick to what I have. I haven't had problems with it so.. oh well.
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