Need advice/opinions

[natrat84]

Hiya all
Well its about my 2 poorly fulica. Apart from the odd mouthful here and there they have barely eaten for months now. I haven't got 1 to come out of its shell for 2 days now (it is alive) and the other is so weak it only moves an inch at the most before retracting again. They still weigh the same as they did at the end of august which is a frighteningly low weight anyway. I have tried everything I possibly can and they are just getting weaker. its really sad seeing the one that does move slowly drag its shell before it curls up again.
I am considering euthanasing But I can't make my mind up. On the 1 hand I feel its in these snails best interests, on the other I feel horrible So I'd like your opinions. Have any of you had a snail with this retracting problem and it recovered? All the ones I have read about have died. There was a glimmer of hope for these 2 a few weeks back when they seemed a bit perkier, but they are worse than before now. I hate to imagine them suffering
What do i do
Many thanks
Nat

[Arno]

I know how difficult it must be because you always keep hoping they're getting better.But like you said snails in this condition almost never make it(including mine).However if you are not completely convinced you want to euthanase them then don't.Only when you are ready for it(or as ready as you ever will be)then do it.Thats really all I can say about it,good luck.

[anjieburdett]

Arno's right Nat - when the time's right and you know you just have to do it, then you won't have to ask. Its awful when this happens, why do they have to hold on for so long? When they linger its soo much worse than just finding them dead

Sorry i can't be more help to you Nat

Anjie,x.

[Paul]

As you know I've had quite a few cases of this. So far, it has took 2 fulica, 2 panthera and 1 dimidiata, all juveniles. I have 2 adult dimidiata that were showing signs of being unwell and 1 baby that wasn't doing too good either.

But crucially, my ill baby and one of my adults has started to eat, the baby seems to have recovered rather quickly and that leads me to wonder if the problem was the same. Inactivity and lack of eating were the symptoms for that but he's back on track. The adult who has started to eat is far from out of the woods yet, and the very poorly adult is losing weight very fast.

I've seen this before with the fulica, they started to eat but then stopped again shortly after and died not long after that. But my recovering dimidiata baby seems to be much more active and happy so I'm really hoping he has survived. He was never at an advanced stage of malnutrition for me to be certain his case is connected to the others but I suspect that it was.

I really believe that ultimately they starve to death, that is what kills them, so we carry on in the hope that we can get some nutrition in them. The jury is still out on this, but I do believe that it is possible to recover, I think the percentage of survivors is small and down to the individual's resilience rather than anything we do.

Some waste away slowly but hang on for a long time, adults much more so because they are bigger I assume. However, my latest panthera was up and moving and had eaten but I found him dead the day after.

Constantly throughout this I have wondered about euthansing them, but I decided early on to try and treat each case in isolation in terms of chances of recovery because like you I didn't want to euthanase unnecessarily. I'm sure your reasoning is the same.

One thing I should mention is that it occurred to me that if we could positively identify the problem and we euthansed, depending on what the cause is, it may have saved others from a similar plight but evidence still suggests it is not contractable or, if it is, it's viral, in which case it is probably too late anyway. My snail collection has really been eroded and I worry about losing all my Achatina snails. But, my stuhlmanni, reticulata and tigers have all been fine, so far.

I think Arno and Anjies advice is the best, you can't do it until you think it is a hopeless situation and at the moment it does seem that way. But it may not be, so if you decide to persevere to the bitter end, take heart that your intentions are good. If it is the case that they are suffering unnecessarily, at least it isn't without purpose. I've tried to take the opportunity to try as hard and long as I continue to believe there is a chance, however small, because success could lead to a better understanding of the problem and maybe even a way of treating them. In the long run, less snails have to suffer and die. That's what I think anyway. There may be a point of no return we can identify so there is no doubt in our minds should we decide to euthanase. At the moment, if I was forced at gun-point to make a judgement I would say I think yours have passed this point, from what I have experienced. I'd certainly not argue if you did choose to euthanase and I would empathise if you didn't.

As we have no real answers, the above is basically what it comes down to in the end. Whatever you choose is perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned because whatever you decide, it isn't for lack of agonising over it.

[natrat84]

Thanks guys
I think I'm going to try one last time tonight to wake them and get them to eat, and if they don't...
The one that does move really looks weak and as though its suffering, I hate that

Can I ask what would be the most painless way for them, if I went ahead? Sorry for such a morbid subject
Nat

[anjieburdett]

Hmmmm I hate this one! I really really truly cannot answer this one because i just would not know what to do myself. I think refridgeration and then freezing sounds horrible (for me anyway) because i would be sitting there thinking about the snail in the fridge Someone said that they tucked it under the tyre of their car and quickly reversed!! Quick maybe....but could you do that? (or could Jas more to the point hehe)

Sorry Nat - I'm not being much help am I?

Anjie,x.

[Paul]

natrat84 said:

Can I ask what would be the most painless way for them, if I went ahead? Sorry for such a morbid subject
Nat

I've never done it but I've asked quite a lot of people so....

If you're squeamish skip the following:

I think most people feel that the fridge, then the freezer is the best way. In theory it should be painless because they can change their physiology if the temperature drop happens fairly slowly, so they'll be hibernating or near hibernation by the time they hit the freezer. How steady and slowly the drop needs to be we don't know. Perhaps putting it in an unheated room, then outside for a while, then the fridge and then the freezer may be the way to do it.

Some people flatten them under a brick because it is so fast. If you do this, you need to really make a swift job of it so it is over quick.

I've heard of people using boiling water, again because it is quick. Some people say they wouldn't feel anything because of the nerves being killed instantly, others disagree.

In any case, it can't be any worse than being eaten alive which is probably how they'd die in the wild.

While we're on the subject there is one other thing for anyone it may apply to. When I was considering euthansing the snail with mantle collapse, I couldn't decide how to do it because its body was hanging out and it was unable to retract properly. I was worried the fridge would burn its body and a brick may not do the job properly in one go so I was considering alternatives at that point, and boiling water was one of them. It didn't come to that because it seemed to heal, and then it died.

[Val]

Oh Nat this is horrible isn't it, deciding when the animal has reached the point of no return is SO bloody hard, I have had many many sleepless night debating in my mind over a few sick fish I had and also some aquatic snails, horrible horrible thing to have to consider when you love animals.
O.K. Well I can only advise what I myself would do, I would be inclined to try the 'heat' cure, put them in a small tank and put them somewhere VERY warm, use a heat mat if necessary, keep the tank VERY warm and humid and just leave them for about 5 days with an adequate supply of food.
If they have eaten nothing and are absolutely no better at all then I would wrap them in kitchen towel and put them in the fridge, I would leave them there for about 3 days and then I would tansfer them to the freezer.
Then I would spend the next few weeks wondering if I could have made them better!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[sezzy5889]

WAIT! i haven't updated my last post, but after 2 months of not eating or drinking my 2 sick fulica are recovering after having the same problem, still skinny but getting there, i started feeding them cuttlefish paste, which is basically powdered cuttlefish mixed with water to form a paste which they would only eat then after about 2 weeks i started mixing a bit of hemp in for about a week then banana or kiwi, and sqeazing a bit of orange juice in, then i started to hand feed them cucumber, which again they would only eat and a bit of kiwi. and then 2 weeks last week i saw them wrapped aroung a piece of corgette (if thats how you spell it) rasping away, and now they are getting less weak and have started climbing up the sides of the tank again and on the lid, their shells aren't brittle anymore and have got a bit of new shell growth and they are even starting to take interest in the other fulica again! i am soo happy they are go up and hope they keep going up, come on Nat if i can do it you can too, i thought i was going to lose both of mine in one night as they were so dry and skinny and weak, they looked like deflated balloons, but they have proved me wrong and are getting back onto other foods and bathing, you can do it, you can do it! don't give up on them, miracles do happen!

x Sarah x

[anjieburdett]

Sorry, lol, just had a vision of opening the fridge door and finding your snaily munching on the cucumber in there!!

[natrat84]

It looks as though they both read my mind.
1 has died Found him this afternoon very dry and stiff, left him for 2 hours, went back and alot of liquid had collected in the shell and he started to smell The other though, woke up just after I checked him when I removed the dead one, and is currently sniffing around the chicken mash. His little eyes looking up at me tell me I have to carry on with this one. BUT if he gets to the point that the other was, not moving at all then I am going to help him on his way, I feel terrible that the other had a long slow death Fingers crossed he improves though
RIP Slim
Nat

[section8angel]

So sorry Nat. You did the best you could. I've got my fingers crossed for you.

Good luck.

[Val]

Nat, please don't feel terrible, if you had put him in the fridge and then the other one had started to get better you would have worried that maybe you 'put him down' too soon!!! This is a no win situation, and it is ALWAYS better to wait and see rather than act too hastily. You did the right thing, it was just his time to go. Fingers crossed for the other one!!!

Val

[anjieburdett]

Sorry Nat! Its a bad week for snails

Anjie,x.