mites severely affecting growth?

[ian]

Sorry if this is really repetative (there are loads of small fulica threads) but I really need some help with a batch of fulica that I have.
They were an accident batch that hatched in october 2006, there were 75 fulica babies!!
Unfortunately, or fortunately depending how you look at it, the babies caught mites from their parents. The adults are easy to treat but the babies proved harder. Over the next few weeks 50 of the babies died and now only 15 are alive. Since then they have grown very little and one in particular is very tiny. Her name is Sophie and she is less than a cm in length and aged 3 and a half months. I've recently hatched one egg from the same parents to see if the problem may be genetic but at 5 days old the new bay is almost the same size as Sophie.

They have constant access to cuttlefish and I use liquid calcium in the spray bottle. They are currently kept in a heated tank and kept in a moist tank with high humidity (i dont have a humidity reader but when i remove the lid i can feel the moisture and heat come up). I have just brought snail mix which im going to try them with.

Can these snails ever catch up and be healthy?
Obviously I cant keep them all and at some point I will have to find new homes, however it is not really fair to rehome unhealthy snails! It's a difficult situation which I have'nt experienced before even when i have had large fulica batches to rehome.

[Paul]

There are always runts and it could be the case with yours.

There's also the possibility that the mites weren't the actual problem, but disguised the true problem from you.

In theory mites are problematic whils they live on the snail, when they are gone the problem is gone. There is the possibility that mites cause bacterial infections, they probably carry harmful bacteria and that could weaken the immune system of the snails. However, it doesn't seem in the best interest of the mites to be a cause of death so I imagine they probably aren't.

I'm not sure what advice to give, because I know so little about these aspects of snail keeping. I would suggest you persevere and keep trying things out. You could try environmental changes for example, as long as you give the snails a chance to settle each time. It's very tempting to swap everything around every 2 minutes in the hope you'll find the magic formula, but they'll need time to adjust so doing so would mean you'd overlook the perfect conditions without realising it. And it may not even be environmental. Generally, but not always, if you have snails doing well in certain conditions and a few aren't then the problem sounds like it is with the snails.

I'm not sure if they grow up to a certain age, or up to a certain size (obviously different for each one), but I imagine non-minor growth problems along the way would limit overall size even if they recovered somehow. If the snail acts normally, it's either a dwarf or a snail temporarily stunted but somehow unaffected. In both cases I wouldn't rule out selling or giving the snails away but I'd definitely be very clear about their history to the recipient. Size isn't always an indication of health, if it was we wouldn't have small breeds of things, that were derived from dwarf mutations.

[ian]

Cool, I'll put them on ebay as 'Rare Pygmy African Snails' and I'll make a mint. . I'm feeling more positive about them now thanks Paul. They are very active and eat lots, their shells are also perfect there is no abnormal growth, just no growth at all!

[ian]

Thought I would add this pic as I just took it. They are all very small but the one on the middle of the cucumber is Sophie who is the most midgiefied.

[ian]

The three smallest ones all died yesterday!

[Val]

So sorry to read this Ian, it is just not possible to keep some of these tiny fulica alive unfortunately.

Val

[ian]

Thanks Val,
Some of the bigger ones are doing really well now and I hope they will eventually catch up to normal size, fingers crossed. I know these were an accidental bach and I also have no homes for them to go to but I do want them to do well.

[Val]

Fingers crossed for these guys Ian

Val

[thuja]

Hi Ian!

Did you ever think of inbreeding as a possible cause for your "dwarf-snails"?

[ian]

They aren't inbred, I don't keep related fulica in the same tank. These snails are from a pair of snails, one of which i had bred from my own lines. So i can guarentee that atleast one of the parents has been bred from healthy and large (or normal sized)snails for 6 generations. The other parent is also large and very healthy snail which i brought from a forum member who i would trust to only supply good quality snails. I keep records of who supplies me with my snails and try my best to find out the snails origins if they werent bred by the seller.
If these snails are at some point related, which is possible, they should be quite distant, and the 6 generations of outbreeding in the one parent should have ensured that there would be a good enough genetic mix that no problems were caused. Although I may be wrong, if i am then someone please correct me.
Lots of fulica are directly inbred (because of ignorance or accident) but this sort of extreme stunting hasn't been seen in the resulting offspring. I think there is some other factor affecting their size. Luckily some of these have found a really good reliable home and im hoping that being in a new environment with different conditions may improve their growth and possibly show up whether im making some kind of mistake with their husbandry.

Any other suggestions would be welcomed, I am becoming quite intrigued as to what is causing the problem in this batch!

[copigeon]

ian said:

(because of ignorance or accident)

Or just a difference in opinion

I have to ask Ian, when you realised that this batch of fulica had some physical defect, why didnt you consider culling them?

(Just to bring it back to my point on another thread regarding the state of fulica in captivity). As a whole batch have been effected its unlikely to be a genetic defect, but it could be a genetic weakness which has caused them to be severely effected by some environmental factor.
Did you consider the consequences of "rehoming" these offspring? Releasing them to the general public knowing the likelyhood is they will be bred from and pass on whatever it is which made them "stunted".

Its not a dig, and its not a criticism so please dont take it as such. Im just trying to understand why the effect of plumbing more defective snails into an already damaged captive species isnt taken into account when breeding.
And where the justification is for not considering the greater effects to the hobby, even if it means the decision to cull.

[thuja]

Hi Ian!

I hope you didn't get me wrong - I didn't want to affront you! This inbreeding-idea was the first thing that came to my mind...

I think your competence in breeding snails is beyond question, so please don't be mad at me!

[ian]

Sorry, I just read my message it sound a bit pissy when it wasn't mean to, i think its cos im still hungover from last night, sorry again. At first i thought that as they were affected by mites early in life this may have set them back in regards to growth, but now ive been assured that there is probably another factor.

Culling is the sensible thing to have done, however i dont think i can actually bring myself to do it. I keep my snails as pets and not as scientific exhibits, so there is a certain degree of emotional attatchment, be it wrong or right (ive also made to critical mistake of naming these snails). Im lucky enough to have found some of them an excellent home with a forum member who is fully aware of their situation and will certainly not be bred from. The remaining ones will stay with me, I'm hoping at least i will learn a lot about growth from them. The parents of these snails will not be bred from, for a start i have quite a lot of fulica because of this lot so any more would be a terrible idea
If I ever have any more accidental batches I will certainly consider culling the babies as long as they are newly born. However i would feel much happier using them as feed for other species as i said in the culling thread, ill try to find someone who keeps chickens.

[copigeon]

Thats good ian (the homes youve managed to find). Its more of a curiousity than anything. I understand theyre pets

It could be very useful to you to see how they progress so its nice you'll manage to keep some, you might be able to work out what went wrong, or at least be able to distinguish some factor which changes thier growth?
I'd be interested to hear of thier progress (and if anything seems to change thier growth) so if you can keep us updated

[ian]

If i do find out anything, ill definately keep this thread updated.

[ian]

Hello thought I would update. Ive kept 4 of these babies and they are really sprouting now so im hoping they will eventually be of healthy size after a bad start.
I measured them a few weeks ago and they were sized
4.3cm
4.0cm
3.7cm
3.35cm

They have all shown a growth of around 8mm in the last month.

Id be really interested to find out how large their siblings are doing, could the people who kindly adopted these snails let me know how they are doing?

Ill get some pictures and put them on later.

[ian]

Another Update, just measured them again, and they have grown quite a bit in the last two weeks, the snails are now;
5.0
4.7
4.4
3.95

Got some pictures too, they look a lot more adult and have developed their different markings so i can actually tell the difference now.

[ness]

Mites. I had a batch of Iradeli which were decimated by mites. Most died. Since getting rid of them all subsequent batches have been healthy and growing well. If these are the same species of mites they suck snail blood, and can cause slow growth and general illness in snails, the youngest and tinyest can and do die off. This has happened to other people's snails too. The best solution by far seems to be to buy Hypoaspis Miles mite, which predates on these pest-mites very effectively and do not end up as pests themselves. They are harmless to snails and other animals and humans. You can but these from Defenders on the internet, amonsgst other places. Roughly £10 for a huge amount (you don't get a choice with the amount) but VERY worth it.

Note: they are sold as a solution to sciarid fly lavae (pests which eat seedlings), but feed on the snail-mites and other tiny mites and lavae.

Good luck xx