goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 24, 2006 14:31:05 GMT
Yeh Copigeon - you are not wasting your time and I think ness is right we are reading your posts and understanding but the point is we do need to start somewhere. I think I for one appreciate that my depth of knowledge on breeding is v scant - I have acquired my snails not bred them but I for one in future would like to know a bit more about how any more I buy are bred and where they have come from. If we don't start somewhere - and if others on here like yourself with breeding experience are not involved this will only ever be talked about and not actioned which will be real shame. I am sure as things develop we will be able to refine things to suit our growing knowledge on the issues discussed here. All the people who breed on here obviously have very different ideas on what works best for them - its just getting everyone to agree on some basic points of cooperation to start with at least? What do you think about Ness's points above for example?
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 24, 2006 13:39:55 GMT
Thats what I was trying to say except you have put it much better
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 24, 2006 12:32:14 GMT
When it has already been established it is irresponsible to breed large amounts of fulica I cannot see how any new 'responsible breeding program' would advocate breeding batches of 300 of any snail at a time anyway - surely you would freeze numbers of eggs anyway and as is already established hatch only small amounts, particularly if you are unsure about how healthy the parents are to start with. I take your point about some of the above issues but we haven't actually developed a breeding program yet and I think if it does happen it isn't going to be possible for it to be completely 'morally correct' because as stated above there will always be people willing to buy what could be 'substandard' snails as pets - we can't with the few people on this forum have a hope of influencing the entire snail keeping community through what is bred on our terms. Anyway I think this is descending a little into a disagreement between 2 points of view - I would say both are relevant but are not furthering the development an actual breeding system now. I think the marking system is a good place to start so individual snails can be tracked. Copigeon and others are probably better placed to decide on this further as they have far more experience in actual breeding success. Will continue to watch this thread with interest.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 24, 2006 11:16:33 GMT
Surely selective breeding is just that - not selecting the stumpy fulica to breed from (whether they are culled or not is the choice of the breeder) - the point of the breeding program would be so breeders could avoid selecting less than desirable stock. Its a pedigree system - but not everyone is going to buy 'pedigree snails' or breed in a responsible manner. Its about a choice. The vast majority of goldfish bought in petshops do not meet a 'breed standard for health and form' but this doesn't mean the BAS can't have a breeding program benefitting those who do want 'pedigree stock'. Anyhow some very interesting points. I have to say I don't agree with all that has been said but like ness says it is certainly food for thought.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 24, 2006 9:16:51 GMT
Environmental factors are certainly important in natural selection and therefore genetics but I think they both interplay. If we are saying environmental factors alone affect snail size, etc how explain why example Um Shlopagus who spent most of his life in a 20 x 10 cm tank on dry gravel with only cucumber to eat grew to 16 cm - there has to be a genetic element in that surely. Lisas fulicas are extremely well kept and have only reached smaller sizes.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 24, 2006 8:37:15 GMT
Had a look last night but can't find the article I was thinking of – seems to have become lost in the www ether – although it is referenced in other papers I looked at online. Googled 'inbreeding depression in land snails' and there are quite a few hits. Unfortunately without subscribing to the various journals it is difficult to view the whole papers online except for the abstracts and excerpts which I appreciate makes it difficult to draw conclusions because we don't know full details of the conditions the experiments were carried out under. They are pretty hard to wade through and frankly my brain hurts now!
The most important points I found were that unlike other species, particularly mammals, snails have not evolved a 'kin avoidance mechanism' when it comes to breeding. In other species this is a mechanism whereby mating with closely related kin is avoided – ie by chasing off young animals before they reach breeding age, or like in wild dogs having a dominance breeding system where only an alpha unrelated pair breed – their offspring are prevented hormonally or otherwise from doing so. Snails in captive studied populations will mate randomly, as much with full siblings as with unrelated individuals. One paper concluded that in the wild snails 'rely on multiple repeated matings with random partners to avoid inbreeding depression'. So for example with the megalobulimus – I take this as an example because if we just take this forum as the snail breeding community – this species is a recent addition and in small numbers. Most people are only going to own 2 of these initially it seems – without snail swapping etc, how can we achieve a natural breeding effect and thus avoid inbreeding depression. In wild populations snails would not mate repeatedly with the same partner.
In other organisms for example plants, quite often propagation ie breeding is vegetatively for example in English Elm through suckering – new trees are offshoots of the parent and therefore genetically identical. OK they were a successful species for a long time but because of this genetic relatedness come Dutch Elm Disease there was no genetic variation or resistance to the disease and they were practically wiped out – other species of elm which relied on cross fertilisation for propagation were not affected to the same extent.
The culling point is interesting – goldfish breeders have similar problems in vast numbers of offspring as with snails and cull extensively, for obvious deformities and also like with the majority of breeding programs goldfish are bred in a variety of forms to a certain 'breed standard'. I don't think we would be looking at such a program here – the basis of a snail breeding program is maintaining a healthy genetic population, with some form of tracking individuals as has been mooted in this thread surely this can only benefit that aim? It wouldn't be a problem keeping snails that did not grow as large or had abnormal shell growth or were weaker as long as we did not breed from them or their offspring if we knew for definite which these offspring were, when people bought snails from other members they would know not to breed with them.
I think the status of a breeding program is in the fact that you know that the animal you purchase has had care taken in selecting its parentage and that it will achieve its full potential – for example on this forum there has been considerable discussion about the size of adult fulicas shells – several people have expressed an interest in owning 'large fulicas'. We don't know if 'small fulicas' are any less healthy (though I suspect that genetics does come into it) but with a breeding program if someone wanted a large shelled fulica they could select from a breeder who had large shelled parents.
Obviously it isn't going to be as strictly controlled as other breeding programs in cats for example the GCCF regularise breeding with registered breeder prefixes and 'active' and 'non-active' registers. Progeny not sold to registered breeders are automatically registered as non-active which means members of the general public cannot register offspring from cats they buy from breeders, this is a means of controlling irresponsible breeding to the detriment of the breed standard. Also obviously we don't have the option of neutering unsuitable parents in snails to prevent them being bred from which makes some form of tracking system more important I would say.
People will still buy non-pedigree cats and dogs and even pedigree cats and dogs to be kept solely as pets but the choice is there for them to select carefully bred individuals – surely that is something that can only benefit the snail keeping community.
Anyhoo that’s my thoughts – I am sure this discussion will continue.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 23, 2006 20:00:10 GMT
There are some papers that evidence inbreeding depression (ie increase in undesirable phenological (visible/physical characteristics) in land snails after fairly short periods of domestication - just can't find them on the internet at the mo.......... will try and look again.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 23, 2006 19:31:21 GMT
Yes - I found that too - I think it is a relatively new hobby certainly on the scale and with the variety of species on this forum. I was amazed there was actually a site like this when I started looking - I used to keep snails years ago and it was pretty rare then - the only ones around were fulicas and there was very little information as to how to keep them etc. It seems as copigeon says snail genetics can be complicated and we need some more scientific knowledge about them - I am sure that will come with time, in the meantime its important to moot new ideas such as the breeding program - its what makes this forum an interesting and rich place to be a part of - I haven't come across another snail site as good - if it was all just posting pics it would be a sadder place for it - love the pics but enjoy a good discussion as well!
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 23, 2006 19:18:49 GMT
It sounds a very good basis - some people from this forum with experience in breeding might be able to input some ideas? I like the idea of the same parents' offspring having one number - you are right that would make it very easy to tell which shouldn't be bred together. I think something simple like that to start with and then as you say it could get more complicated once we know what sort of traits are desirable in snails. A lot of domestic pets are bred for looks and to a certain breed standard for example my pedigree cats - there is nothing like that for snails so it would really just be common sense and maintaining a healthy population - for example not breeding from snails for example exhibit poor growth even under ideal conditions etc. Someone would also need to be the 'record keeper' and hold the centralised records - like the Kennel Club lol!
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 23, 2006 18:42:22 GMT
Hmmm my 2 fulicas are related to each other and so are my 2 tigers!
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 23, 2006 18:30:08 GMT
I think as snail keeping is becoming such a big hobby now a more organised approach to breeding will be needed - it will avoid inbreeding problems like you say and I don't think it was a bad idea for you to post about snail swapping for breeding purposes - like you say it is an important part of breeding other species and has been for a long time so long as like loops says you can trust that person. If snail keeping is going to become a long term viable hobby some sort of organised breeding approach is going to be needed - we can't keep importing wild specimins indefinitely without depleting wild stocks, particulary of rarer species. Also there are probably restrictions on importing numbers of these rarer species anyway which makes an organised captive breeding program even more important
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 12, 2006 20:17:21 GMT
That probably true also. Nevertheless my original fulicas - kept about 12 - 13 years ago - I had 3 all reached 16-18 centimetres.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 12, 2006 14:20:40 GMT
I think that is exactly what is needed - I am sure everyone who doesn't breed snails appreciates all the hard work you guys who do carry out so we can own healthy captive snails.
I suppose also with wild caught species, if they are collected from a small geographical area or location given that snails are not apt to travel far there is a chance those could be related to a certain extent also.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 12, 2006 14:02:04 GMT
Also I suppose the problem can be compounded by the fact that some snail species like fulicas are prolific breeders and produce vast amounts of eggs regularly - a genetic strategy that in the wild would mean at least some of their offspring survive to breed, but in captivity means that a large numbers of genetically related offstring survive which unless separated will breed together. Many people also buy more than one snail from the same source - for example I will not be able to breed Ivan and Igor since they are brothers. I think sites like this already hold the information we need to ensure viable breeding populations since those of us with captive snails usually know their origin and parentage.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 12, 2006 13:51:17 GMT
I think that is true Kevin - I am sure the fulicas sizes are becoming smaller because of inbreeding problems. I think if snail keeping is going to become a viable long term hobby then some kind of organised captive breeding program is going to be required - similar to that for other species for example zoo and farm animals and pedigree cats/dogs. We are going to need to know 'pedigrees' for our snails - their initial origin and their parentage to avoid inbreeding and perhaps loan out snails to others with unrelated individuals for breeding purposes. You would also perhaps need occasional injections of wild caught genes to keep the gene pool healthy.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Jun 15, 2007 8:01:29 GMT
HI Linzi and welcome! Your companion is a Helix aspersa or common garden snail. Sounds like he is being spoilt - and rent free too!
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Feb 8, 2007 12:20:28 GMT
Beautifully marked suturalis - good luck with your search for other species Kevin.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Dec 16, 2006 20:30:06 GMT
Just genetic variation - same as any species of animal no 2 are exactly alike. Very pretty babies you have yourself there though.
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Dec 1, 2006 16:32:31 GMT
They look my fulica UmShlopagus - same pale browny stripy shell maybe they are distantly related!!
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Nov 21, 2006 9:54:04 GMT
Cheers
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Nov 20, 2006 21:35:10 GMT
Just curious - I notice poppy has some more snails up on ebay - what species are the blondes?
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 31, 2006 9:06:07 GMT
Hmmm thats the sticking point - except there are no other species of slug in the UK with the breathing hole in the tail - maybe it has had its vestigial shell damaged? I don't know. All the other slug families have the breathing hole at the front of the body, except in very rare cases (when it is on the left) on the front right hand side. Think it may remain a mystery!
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 30, 2006 22:07:59 GMT
Has it scoffed any food? Testacella live on earthworms so maybe if you put some worms in there with it it might fancy a snack and that might be another clue
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 30, 2006 21:59:27 GMT
Could be a baby yes - they grow to 12 cms as adults (sorry the 6-7 cm above was a typo - should 6-12 cms) back in a bit..............
|
|
goose
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 311
|
Post by goose on Oct 30, 2006 21:57:09 GMT
OK so it doesn't have a breathing hole at the front behind the eyes? Because in the key it says the mantle 'is a flap of skin and tissue coveing part of the body and enclosing the lung. In all slugs except Testacella (in which it is under the shell on the tail)...' and therefore not visible...' it is on the anterior part of the body just behind the shell. The pneumostome (breathing hole) opens on the right side of the mantle'. If the mantle in Testacella is on its tail under the shell then the breathing hole is there too - no other slugs have the breathing hole there. Testacella are usually subterranean but are found in compost heaps - similar to the pile of leaves you were collecting? There is a species Testacella haliotidea which is creamy white or yellow with a whitish sole - they reach 6-7 cms when extended and do elongate. Without the shell on the tail though............................unless that is really translucent as well.
|
|