snails on ebay

[latebloomer]

I made my first bid on ebay and got three rodatzis for £1.04. I'm glad to have them and had a secret bid in so knew I would get them but how sad that living things can change hands for pennies.

[serenesarong]

I've got most of my snails from eBay. I've generally found the sellers to be really helpful and when sending them they are well packaged so I haven't had any mishaps with the post. It is sad that they can be sold for so little, but the alternative is maybe not selling them at all, and maybe people not breeding as many... I paid a lot more for my two adult and three juvenile rodatzis but was happy to pay what I did... they are beautiful snails!

[foghog]

In 'most' situations snails shouldn't be sold for any real amount of money at all. they lay plenty of eggs (in most situations, there are some that are difficult.) and dealers often kill they by the dozens when they have to many of them...the only reason they do not sell them reasonably is because they want to make a profit, and they do not make enough doing it for a low amount. just like pet breeders...they give some cock and bull story about reasons their animals have to be sold for $700 ea. or $1500/etc....but thats all it is, is BS really. snails under most situations can be picked up off the ground in many areas, and lay dozes if not hundreds of eggs through the year, and in captivity and treated right they (under normal circumstances once more there are more difficult ones.) have a high hatch percentage and growth percentage....so there just isn't any real reason for asking a lot.bottom line is many dealers suck (not all.), and abuse the hobby and just want to use the people involved for income, as it is what they do for income. (once again not all.) if regular folk have eggs, instead of freezing them, if they are even a somewhat desired species...let them hatch and send them out for a few bucks profit to help others and increase the hobby base so more people will be interested and the knowledge and science with them will grow.

oh and if you have or can get helix pomatia, send some to me, I might add. I will be more then happy to pay for the costs involved.

sorry, I modified this post, as it appears perhaps a moderator hear might of taken offense thinking I was referring or including them, and I didn't mean all dealers, and should of clarified that. some dealers are fine, and are a needed entity that allows many to come to a single source for a reliable supply that are handled and taken care of professionally. then again some are not also.

[copigeon]

Can I just clarify, foghog, you are in the states/canada yes? And there for, have no idea what it takes to breed and maintain a giant or non temperate species of snail. I just need to clarify you have no personal experience at all -only an opinion founded on collecting helix from the road side? I just want to make sure I'm not confused, and haven't got that wrong.

[latebloomer]

They have arrived and they are LOVELY! There was a photograph to judge the size before purchase or I would not have risked it. My first two were free to good home on the forum and they are absolutely gorgeous, big healthy snails.

[foghog]

Sept 28, 2011 6:05:27 GMT copigeon said:

Can I just clarify, foghog, you are in the states/canada yes? And there for, have no idea what it takes to breed and maintain a giant or non temperate species of snail. I just need to clarify you have no personal experience at all -only an opinion founded on collecting helix from the road side? I just want to make sure I'm not confused, and haven't got that wrong.

Yes I am in the States, and since it is illegal to own or possess many types of snails here, you will not see me say I have experience owning nor possessing any of them at all while in the US. that are illegal but yes I have experience while living elsewhere in extremely similar climates that are legal to do so.

The truth is, there are still people who raise snails because they wish to do so...and then there are mongers who do so, because they wish to make money off of them, and often do not even care at all for them really, but they care about the $ plenty. For those who take care of their pets because they want to, they do so and would do so regardless, so the costs infringed would still be the same, the added costs of breeding, is hardly equal to the $40-to $60 each that they attempt to charge, in most cases for young snails....nice try though. I am sure and have found anyone can justify almost anything they do in their own minds one way or another...I find they often do this by using broad unrelated hypothetical explanations, but by all means if he can support that cost value with your experience and specifics I'm here listening. So is everyone else. please do so.
I will acknowledge a professional breeder has loss in many areas, including time/etc. but it is my desire to have enthusiasts involved helping each other and eliminate the professional breeders to a large degree personally. Of course any professional breeders would without a doubt be against me and others doing that....they of course want to continue being able to charge that much. Me, I'm a free market person....I am more for educating the public so it raises more individuals to close to professional standards and thus the field and area itself gets better.

[foghog]

the last post posted double not sure why but I modifed and deleted the double. it wouldnt let me just delete it.

[copigeon]

Thank you, for confirming that. For such a wordy person, you show a shocking amount of ignorance.

[foghog]

ok...I hear you talking...and yet...you aren't saying exactly how or showing anything...but you being a Global moderator and all, I'd be silly to argue, so guess I won't.... guess I will just have to take your word for it, that I am, merely because you say so. anytime you feel like educating me, please do so....this is after all your forum, being a global moderator and all. Did I say anything which in your infinite wisdom as a person who sells and surely familiar with the subject obviously, is not true, in your opinion? If so, I really hope you speak up, because I do not want to give anyone poor advice, where someone who is a expert like yourself could be giving better wisdom. Plus, I am always willing to learn.

[coyote]

Foghog, please understand that there are people here who have had many years of hands-on experience with raising GALS that those of us in the US simply don't have. I always defer to their experience and wisdom in all matters regarding snails species I haven't personally kept. It is because of their collective knowledge that this site has any value. Their actual hands-on experience, knowledge and wisdom trump anyone else's opinion or conjecture any day, IMO.

[foghog]

meh. I just decided to erase my response. the truth is arguing about this would be ignorant....Y'all are free to think as you wish...it is not a surprise to find someone who is selling such things to think as she does. it has nothing to do with understanding others may have more expertise....no one argued or contradicted anyone's expertise, except copigeon. and I'm fine with that being her opinion. I notice she said absolutely nothing about the subject or the topic......the only thing this global moderator felt the need to do evidently is attempt to state that because I live in the states and cannot legally own certain snails, it must mean somehow that I have no experience involving them, and then calling me ignorant..... but whatever.... lateblooner and serenesarong pointed out great deals and satisfaction they received on ebay...I think thats great...I think people in the forum here having snail exchanges with each other and those they trust is great also.....am I crossing the line as a user of this forum, saying that?

[copigeon]

Sorry foghog, I was at work and thought it might give you a chance to reread and reconsider some of what you said before I offered some reply in full.
Can we be very clear about something - Im a person, not a moderator, and I too can have an opinion and my status on the forum should have no bearing in the way you talk to me, Im not going to wave an ugly stick at you and shout boo.

Its not an attempt at being superior - its a mixture of bemusement and irritation that someone who has absolutely no concept of what's involved in rearing non temperate and non native species could come up with such an elaborate rant against the "evil and greed stricken traders of the mollusc world".

Before we begin to air a few myths - who do you imagine these traders to be? Im yet to find more than a couple of people who keeps anywhere near the number of species I do effectively in the UK - I know a few names in Europe, there’s a couple in Germany some in the Czech republic but were talking enthusiasts and hobbyists. The only people who breed thousands of snails en-mass are meat farms, farming meat snails in china and France mostly. And then I can assure you they are most definitely selling their stock for pennies - no fear of an overpriced snail kabob there.
Snail farming for great profit just doesnt exist in the way you seem to imagine it does - I dont know if its because you cannot access the trade in land molluscs but the only thing in a abundance is A. fulica - and thats because its so accessible as a species it ends up in most peoples living room at one point in their lives.

Who am I to call you ignorant in what you say - I’ve been breeding exotic molluscs for 8-10 years, and keeping exotic insects for at least 14.
I currently keep and breed around 30 species, and rear most of these to sell commercially alongside my hobby.

Snails are cheap to rear! Eggs are BASICALLY FREE!
I have a dedicated out building, thermostatically controlled with air conditioning and full day/night cycled lighting. The glass tanks recently installed totalled around £1500, the plastic rearing boxes £450. Costs are ongoing.
On average I spend £160-200 a month in in running costs which is inclusive of heating and feed. Snails are not free to keep - they require a lot of my time, a good amount of start up capital and a lot of ongoing costs to maintain. I would imagine anyone with a large collection will probably spend a similar sum.
I check for ova every morning, these are individually tubbed, labelled and incubated. Records must be maintained and parentage recorded. Takes me two days to strip and feed the tanks weekly. An hour most evenings to check on things.
Snails are not free.

But you can pick them up anywhere off the ground!
When I import a species - a new species, I could pay out between £200-600 to acquire that initial stock. If its a species that I’ve never purchased before I could lose the lot in a few weeks, I could lose my money to a dodgy collector, or the post journey could blitz the lot.
In general, I have to try and win back any loses on large imports of favoured species, then I charge high prices to buffer against any loses I might incur and still place me in enough profit to maybe consider getting a few more in.
At the end of the day - most people wont be able to import these unusual species they would otherwise like to keep. They wont be absorbing the losses, and with live arrival guarantee they wont be forking out if the post lets them down. So for the comfort of just being able to "buy something they want and have it turn up live" they will pay a bit more for the convenience, or they will wait for the species to be come established in captivity and hope they become common enough to lower the price.

Snails lay loads of eggs all the time!
I’ve had species which will lay 1-2 clutches a year, immaculata are hit and miss, haven’t had a decent clutch off of them for 18 months now, alboptica are on strike, ovum are hit and miss, some species Ive never had ova from despite conditions being good, continued efforts might see me through for a next generation but there are no guarantees. They’re not like dogs, or cats, you don’t stick two together watch them do the naughty thing and then the clocks ticking. Snails can sit fertile for years without producing ova. Even A. fulica can go through a dry spell. But you still have to feed it, house it, heat it. These are not machines.

But they lay loads of eggs so you have hundreds and they all grow so fast!
Achatina achatina take 18 months to reach a decent juvenile/subadult size, the first 6 months of their life they’re fairly unimpressive. In that time a clutch can eat two romain and an equal number of sweet potato a week just in there first few months. That’s £12 ish a month for the first month, add about £2 a month from there in. Starts to get expensive, and that’s just one clutch. Archachatina rarely lay more than 8 eggs in a clutch, and with the exception of suturalis the hatch rate can be very poor. Why would you imagine that every species produces hundreds of eggs and grows so fast? Don’t you think if that were the case you would see lots of megalobulmius listed for sale?

The rest of your argument is drivel, so we'll leave it there.
But to clarify - I do what I do to turn a profit. That doesn’t mean I don’t love my hobby, I really do. So much so I would love it to be my job. I maintain species/variants which are worthless - no one wants. I do this because it protects the species within the hobby. I want to turn a profit so I can spend more time working on the snails and the research into breeding/keeping/housing them to improve the hobby instead of grinding out my hours at Currys.
I don’t think it benefits the hobby to keep thousands of hatchlings without some quality control, I don’t think it helps the hobby to devalue the species by giving them away to people with a two minute interest. And I think high values on unusual species not yet comfortably established in captivity prevents the two minute pet breeders buying and losing those lines.
As with anything the value of something is unique to the person buying. I’ve purchased snails for £120 a head, which is more than I’ve ever sold then for, and I can happily say I didn’t feel ripped off.

I don’t make money from what I do, but I would like to, and hopefully one day I can. And it will be my hard work that gets me there, and it will be my efforts which maintains some of the more unusual species in culture. And I feel quite comfortable in saying that if you want a piece of my hard work in the form of a captive bred lignus adult or stable line of white bodied archachatina then its not going to be “cheap as chips” as its a direct reflection of the time and effort I’ve put in to get to that point. And I don’t see why you would feel entitled to that?

[serenesarong]

Well said Copigeon... I especially agree with the part regarding rarer species being more expensive than more common varieties... If people can get any type of snails for pennies then they are less likely to look after them properly... People will buy on a whim rather than thinking through the purchase and care requirements for the snails. I thought about getting my first fulica (Arthur) for a couple of weeks before going out and buying him, and he is a normal (and therefore quite cheap) A. Fulica, but a lot of people would not think about all of the requirements and care before getting one and in the long term it would be the snail, and the species that suffer as a result. I'm all for keeping snails, rare or common, and breeding them is fun... But I'm also for keeping the prices at a reasonable level to make people really think about looking after them etc. And the rarer the snail and the harder to breed the price should reflect that.
Snails are wonderful fascinating creatures, and I believe everyone should at least give them a go IMO. I also believe that the people who are really going to care for them, and help to populate the captive bred market with new and rarer species are going to be the enthusiasts who will help to provide more information on species we don't know much about, and these people will be prepared to spend a little more for snails that they will look after properly.

I can see what Foghog is saying about farming pet snails, but I really don't believe that there are many if any 'pet snail farms' in this country at least... Surely there would be more snails readily available if there were?

[luciebella]

The Margies I got from Copigeon are easily the healthiest, most active and stunning snails I've ever had, and I don't think I'd have got that from someone who hadn't put the time and effort into them as youngsters. I've had snails of eBay and it's always a bit hit and miss, but I would recommend Copigeon as you really do get what you pay for!

[foghog]

I already said and allocated for all of that in my first response. I am not talking about you, or what you do...no where did I say "This all relates to copigeon" and you listing all your expenses and then pointing out you do it for profit, puts it in perspective perfectly. and then claim you make no profit.....well ok...sorry for you. everything you said really has no relevance......I don't really care about you, nor as previously stated, it wasn't 'you' I was referring to obviously. go ahead and charge and justify what you charge anyways you want...that is between you and your customers. but you are the one talking for yourself. I am talking about quite a few sellers I know of and have dealt with. If you are not that way...then whatever...

Obviously the OP (latebloomer) received their snails "three rodatzis for £1.04."....which they received and were happy with....so there you go......guess that person was fine with selling them for such. I am happy for the OP....not sure if you could (or in your case would.) cut them the same deal....but if not, then well...glad there is a free market, and the OP received something from someone they enjoyed.....I support that fully. maybe you could get some advice from who they bought them from on how they operate and if they cut down costs and how huh?...but thats business for you. It's all about efficiency, and competition. I do not feel 'entitled' to anything....I am for someone else underselling you, and you losing customers or being forced to come down in your costs as the free market works. (note the you I refer to isn;t you specific...it is you as businesses in general.) As I stated. I am for educating and increasing the hobby aspect of it, so many people grow and breed decent stock and then offer it for hobbists in...say a forum like this, or Ebay, or elsewhere. I do not think that is against this forums rules, (please correct me if I am mistaken, eing a moderator you obviously should know for sure, and it is possible I am mistaken.) and I encourage it.

By all means, if I say anything to anyone that is against the interests of their snail friends however, then please correct me with your great experience. so far I do not believe I have done so though. That will determine if I know what I am talking about or if I am ignorant, or inexperienced I believe. or better yet, go ahead and answer all the questions yourself, and I won't bother. I don't mind...really.

btw, is there a area we can post about good deals on snails we can post on the forum here for others, that we are not personally selling, from like Ebay/other sources/etc? as enthusiasts, it's always good to look out for each other, right?

[latebloomer]

I am most heartily sorry for bringing this subject up but might I mention just for the record that no animal I have ever owned, whether horse, dog or any other species never has, or ever will be, a two minute interest.

[copigeon]

Dont be late bloomer - conversation often goes off topic, I am equally pleased you found a bargain on ebay

Foghog - you cant rant about traders who use snails for profit - of which I am in that basket - moan and gripe because I think your rant is bloated with ignorance and wont offer you any "education" and then when I do explain to you the costs involved in keeping snails on a large scale and fact that even despite the desire to turn a profit that with snails its a very difficult thing to achieve, try and bemoan my attempt to educate you with a "its not about you" response.
I am registered self employed selling insects in the majority molluscs, I am an "evil profit seeking trader". That doesn’t mean I don’t think people should sell their hobby stock for whatever price they want, that doesn’t mean I haven’t given stock away in trades. It means I find it hard to stomach an American with no practical experience baulking at the fact his mythical world of fat cat snail keepers sat on their mounds of gold doesn’t exist.

You cant go around being inflammatory and not expect a response, and so far the only retort I can see against my attempt to show you how daft your initial raving was is the idea that you could possibly affect or offer any advise towards my business model. I would suggest that perhaps that’s a bit silly.

If this is your idea of educating the hobby, that might explain why molluscs dont get the same level of respect which is adorned on arachnids or phasmids.

[brunni]

In any free market economy, prices are going to be determined by supply and demand. If COPIGEON is making big bucks on selling GALS then its not going to take long for somebody to cotton on and start to undercut her and she's out of business. Cut costs too much and inevitably the quality of the product will suffer and you're also out of business.

Therefore people like LUCIEBELLA are going to buy from reputable suppliers because she had absolute customer satisfaction.

Fact is most of these breeders are dedicated to their hobby and if they were to calculate their actual costs and time they don't earn big. It is not their main source of income and they do it in their spare time.

[latebloomer]

I don't see it as a bargain copigion, I thought it was a terrible pity and asking for impulse buyers who would not value them and give them proper care and attention. I am the last person who would want to buy an animal like this, it is morally wrong to an old fashioned person like me. I requested Special Delivery as an option, but the seller did not reply to my message nor was I happy about the packing. The snails seem ok though and are settled for life now. Anybody who thinks they can be kept dirt cheap regarding housing and heating is in for a rude awakening however!

[foghog]

no copigeon...your ignorance was presuming that I didn't already know the cost involved and you were telling me anything new at all...and obviously still is. and that is just the start.....for you evidently do not seem to recognize that you buying all the things you do buy, since as you claim it is also a hobby of yours, is actually your profit...you are just reinvesting it into your hobby...and you are allowed to spend your profit anyway you wish to, go a head and buy gold gilding for your holding tanks, and then claim you have the need to charge $10,000/snail if you wish.
and once more you are making this about YOU....I did not, in fact I never talked about you at all, until you specifically addressed me. someone would have to be at the height of ignorance to think merely because others speak about something you are doing it specifically involves or indicates you, especially when you were not involved in the conversation at all at the time.
I mentioned in the conversation that dealers not only have costs associated, not just in material but in time and the fact that as a breeder 'often' if reputable entails going through extra effort to maintain purity of breed as well as ideological attributes of the species bred, and some species are more rare with difficult breeding that would elevate the costs ...but whatever....you go ahead and think about me what you wish honey......don't go losing sleep over it, cause I sure am not. Unlike you, I do not, nor have not, sold snails, so I am here purely for enjoyment purposes and for the hobby.....not here to argue with you. I'm done with you as far as this conversation goes.

[copigeon]

foghog - you cant slander a whole group of people and expect them not to take it upon themselves to defend, you made a scathing generalisation based on no experience, all conjecture, and wilful ignorance not just of the current market or trade in land molluscs but clearly in land snails in general

You ask for education - I give you examples, of course I will use myself in that example because unlike you I would rather not claim as fact speculation on things I do not personally know or have experienced.

And now you call me honey?
If I hadnt looked at your profile I would of thought you a child.
Im not sure how someone who has only ever kept Helix would have any concept of the costs involved in a large dedicated setup - just as I wont claim to know how much it costs to house an elephant. The rest of your post is mostly blathering, but I would exclaim some bemusement to the fact you think you acknowlegded any costs incurred by the breeder - I thought ova were free!

the only reason they do not sell them reasonably is because they want to make a profit, and they do not make enough doing it for a low amount. just like pet breeders...they give some cock and bull story about reasons their animals have to be sold for $700 ea. or $1500/etc....but thats all it is, is BS really. snails under most situations can be picked up off the ground in many areas, and lay dozes if not hundreds of eggs through the year, and in captivity and treated right they (under normal circumstances once more there are more difficult ones.) have a high hatch percentage and growth percentage....so there just isn't any real reason for asking a lot

My point is made.

[foghog]

Sept 29, 2011 8:08:07 GMT latebloomer said:

I don't see it as a bargain copigion, I thought it was a terrible pity and asking for impulse buyers who would not value them and give them proper care and attention. I am the last person who would want to buy an animal like this, it is morally wrong to an old fashioned person like me. I requested Special Delivery as an option, but the seller did not reply to my message nor was I happy about the packing. The snails seem ok though and are settled for life now. Anybody who thinks they can be kept dirt cheap regarding housing and heating is in for a rude awakening however!

so why did you buy them then? please.....you bought them specifically because they were for a good price, and reasonable to you obviously. and there is no shame in that, and many more will do the same, and surely be as happy as you and as serenesarong was when she said

I've got most of my snails from eBay. I've generally found the sellers to be really helpful and when sending them they are well packaged so I haven't had any mishaps with the post.

but what is even better is being part of a forum, where the people in that forum actually help each other and trade or offer for very reasonable amounts to others any stock they may have bred and hatched themselves. that is when the forum becomes more like a community. imo. Buy two rare species from someone else for whatever they decide their prices are, and breed them, and recoup the money you bought them for by offering to others. or trading for other species that someone else bought, then learn the peculiarities of the new species, and expand your knowledge and enjoyment. People who do so for a hobby, do it for their enjoyment and because they wish to care for the animals. (hopefully...some do not and do not put forth any effort obviously or grow bored with it.) trading among enthusiasts is a good way for hobbyists to expand their collection with like minded hobbyists imo.
As far as I know this is not against this forums rules at all. and this forum is for promoting such things. if that isn't the case, someone can please tell me, before I would ever suggest doing such a thing.

Snails are not really a major hobby in many areas. promoting it as a hobby will hopefully spark peoples interest in researching and studying them, not just scientifically, but as pets as well. having lists of foods, odd behaviors, reoccurring behavior and problems / etc is something that is important. These things happen if you buy a discus macclintocki for $150 from a dealer or if you buy one for $1 from another hobbyist or trade imo.

[foghog]

your point is not made because you evidently have poor reading skills. I did not slander a whole group of anyone. I slandered those what I said applied to. you merely decided to take it as yourself being included....thats a problem with your ignorance, not mine. same as you claiming still when I clearly said otherwise, that evidently to you and your lack of deduction I somehow confirmed to you that I only raised and had helix, when I did no such thing.

the only reason they do not sell them reasonably is because they want to make a profit, and they do not make enough doing it for a low amount. just like pet breeders...they give some cock and bull story about reasons their animals have to be sold for $700 ea. or $1500/etc....but thats all it is, is BS really. snails under most situations can be picked up off the ground in many areas, and lay dozes if not hundreds of eggs through the year, and in captivity and treated right they (under normal circumstances once more there are more difficult ones.) have a high hatch percentage and growth percentage....so there just isn't any real reason for asking a lot

read carefully and then re-read it a few more times...'they' applies to 'those included in the parameters' 'they' does not mean 'every dealer' which you would be part of....you included yourself in the assessment...I did not. in fact you turned the whole conversation and topic into something about you....so ya...I called you honey. must be because you are so sweet. have a nice day....life...whatever... really you have no further need to perpetuate this.

[coyote]

I think it's time to put this topic to rest, folks.