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Post by caroline04 on Oct 4, 2011 15:31:02 GMT
Hi,
A thought crossed my mind... I've so far noticed 3 kinds of 'breeders', the mums selling on their snails babies for their kids, people using the snails by mass breeding to make a quick few quid, and the hobbyists whose snails breed and then they sell on the babies, but are their people who breed purely for the good of the snails? For instance trying to keep the large sizes and keep the species as healthy as possible? I spent a lot of time breeding pedigree pet rats, and a lot of effort is put into improving the lines and encouraging all the right genetics, to improve them and fight against the weak genetics of the mass produced 'feeders'. Is the same true for snails? Are there people out there breeding them to improve them?
And if so, how? What do you do? Do you keep logs of age and size at each snails death to help improve size and long lives, do you log number of chips and such each snail in its shell has to make stronger shells? do you mark snails and only breed certain snails from good lines to make sure all the babies produced are top-notch and will carry on the lines you have been working towards? Or is it just put down as a waste of time to do such things??
Caroline.
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 4, 2011 15:46:31 GMT
it is a common practice and has been for thousands of years to keep the largest in a grouping for breeding. but there are many other aspects others go through as well. Some are distasteful to those who love snails (some look at it as animal experimentation which is frowned upon by many, so a lot of people do not talk about doing so except in research papers.) but in short yes there are many such things going on.
As far as the method, I will not go into those even if I know of them, or do so myself. however....I think meticulous record keeping is a must as well as keeping specific data. most people who even wish to care for their little friends will always keep track of what they are fed, and under what conditions and any circumstances involved. regular shell growth rate, weight, attributes, activity/etc. The idea behind anything of the sort is to have controlled situations with reproducible results.
This helps owners as when those trends in results are known it furthers the hobby and enthusiasts hobby as well. for instance using coir as a substrate or mixing it with compost or top soil. using oyster shell (or rather a mix.) compared to limestone powder.....Enthusiasts often go with oyster shell/Mix, and a mixed substrate because in the past experiments have shown productive results (up to a 30% improvement in growth using a mixture with oyster shell in one species in fact compared to limestone powder.) the rest depend of course on the species. each species has it's own quirks and particulars. a good start is always look at the parts of the world where whatever attribute you wish to increase is prevalent and try to mimic the environment and conditions the snails there are under, nutrition, micro-climate/etc....there are reasons certain snail species are in certain areas.
hope this answers at least some of what you were wondering. Some hobbyist without a doubt try to keep the traits just natural as well I would guess. I myself do not believe just because a snail is larger, is necessarily more healthy for instance.
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Post by caroline04 on Oct 4, 2011 16:40:31 GMT
Thanks for replying  You answered pretty much everything I asked! I was just wondering as I have not really seen any topics on breeding to improve snails, it was all just 'buy a couple of snails and wait' kinda thing, and was interested in whether they were bred for more than profit and if it was taken seriously by some to stop mass inbreeding and defects etc; but you more than answered my questions! Thank you! But why is such a thing not liked much? Surely it must be better for the snails then ones that are mass bred just to make feeders and yet that is much more talked about on other forums... What could possibly be bad about improving and conserving them? As long as it's not harming the snails by culling extra babies or encouraging bad qualities, etc; surely it could be nothing but good??  It is just so strange that with snails it all seems to be done either not at all or behind closed doors, whereas any other pet in the world such things are standard practises?? As long as no harm is done to them, why arn't such things more talked about and agreed with? |
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Post by copigeon on Oct 4, 2011 16:54:11 GMT
Achatina fulica can produce 200+ successful offspring from a single clutch.
For selective breeding to be effective, a large percentage of those would need to be reared on to a decent size to ascertain qualities desired.
The select 2-3 with the best shell/size whatever you were aiming to improve on would be retained. What do you do with the other 197?
The only way of doing this effectively is to cull the undesired, and not many people have the stomach for that.
There are other difficulties with snails not experienced with other animals.
Snails retain sperm, and can remain fertile from one pairing for months even years. You have no guarantee that you can "pair" any snail species effectively. The only assurances come from rearing snails in solitary once they hit a certain size, but the space and time involved would be immense even with one species.
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 5, 2011 15:05:00 GMT
But why is such a thing not liked much? Surely it must be better for the snails then ones that are mass bred just to make feeders and yet that is much more talked about on other forums... What could possibly be bad about improving and conserving them? exactly what Copigeon said above, many do not believe in culling morally......I can understand their position, as first of all we as people decide we like certain traits, for instance them getting larger.......but in reality nature works the way nature works for a reason, and there are usually always trade-offs....if they get larger will it put more stress on their internal organs, will it unnaturally force their bodies to adapt in ways which the rest of their bodies are not able to keep up with/etc, or will it just make them 'not themselves' anymore period? (as a side note plant genetics is something that has been going on for a very long time...now to the point where companies are actually legally able to claim ownership of plants that have their sequence of dna manipulation in them....and as a result of this manipulation it is getting harder and harder to even GET non modified plants anymore....which in many cases are actually more tasty and are just what people recognize as what the plants should be. tomatoes is a excellent example....many people are now growing up thinking the modified tomatoes they eat in a grocery store is what a tomato 'tastes' like...if you taste a real good heritage tomato though it is apparent they are getting the short end of the stick without even knowing it....because tomatoes have been modified for commercial value - ie to make more profit not more taste necessarily, and what is worse is with the companies owning the actually dna sequence and thus the plant itself, with all farms going to this new variety, these companies will actually control the food supply totally....one year they could just decide 'no' we are not selling it anymore unless you pay us trillions, ot os our property and we own it....and there won't be enough of the original plants seeds to cover...then what?) ...the truth is those types of things just cannot be known at this time....that is the problem with playing god and doing such things. thus the moral issue. plus some people think they should love whatever unconditionally, and if they do not do so, then they really do not love them at all so it is a source of pride to them to raise or allow to grow even the smallest, or broken, or etc....but as Copigeon mentioned....There can be up towards 200+ offspring from one clutch....which turns quickly into 200+ having 200+ so growing them all to the point of identifying those attributes or seeing a reproducible result can get a bit insane really quickly, especially when factoring in long term controls like feeding schedule and breeding. However it is a well known practice to usually separate the young from the rest, and remove those who have stunted attributes such as size so breeding isn't encouraged among the less desired ones. same with visual attributes. large growth snail farms do it all the time actually....but the fact of them doing it all the time also shows their is no guarantee at all it will be successful. (cause if that was the case they wouldn't have any they needed to separate because they would all have the attributes they desire.)...but without a doubt it does make a difference and has a influence on the percentage increase of the attributes they wish , which is also why they keep doing it. I won't state what my specific position is on the matter, as that isn't relevant. everyone needs to make their own judgements imo. |
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It is just so strange that with snails it all seems to be done either not at all or behind closed doors, whereas any other pet in the world such things are standard practises?? As long as no harm is done to them, why arn't such things more talked about and agreed with?
