saki114
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 327
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Post by saki114 on Oct 8, 2011 17:50:45 GMT
It is getting close to winter and I want the best 4 my snails' hibernation so i've a few questions: 1: what temperatures do they survive (highest & lowest)? 2: do I need to install a heat mat, humidifier, etc.? Because It is pretty difficult & complicated 4 me to get stuff like that. 3: how would I know if they're still alive during hibernation or would I need to wait till spring?
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Oct 8, 2011 21:17:55 GMT
If you have aspersa and are keeping them indoors, they will not need a heat mat. The tank should be kept sprayed, though, to maintain the humidity.
My aspersas have never hibernated the whole winter. I keep their tank in the coolest place in the house year-round, but it never goes below the upper 40s F, and even then, only for a few hours overnight during the coldest of cold snaps. It never gets cold and stays cold where I am, there is always a warm-up to one extent or another during the day. My snails haven't been inactive for more than a week or two; they seem to wake up periodically to eat a little, then go back to sleep.
As far as I know, there's no way to tell from a hibernating snail if it's alive, other than to let it warm up and see if it responds in a day or two (a snail in true hibernation won't wake up for a brief warm-up). If it begins to smell bad, it's dead, but it can be dead for a while before the odor sets in.
Snails can tolerate quite low temperatures if they have a chance to acclimate themselves by undergoing a gradual cool-down, but I don't know the exact min/max numbers. Aspersas like it cool, so I would imagine the heat would affect them worse (all other things being equal).
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saki114
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 327
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Post by saki114 on Oct 10, 2011 21:37:06 GMT
thanks so much...it's fall right now and my snails are still a little active. What can I put in the container to help it hibernate and what month does it usually start to hibernate?
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 11, 2011 1:05:03 GMT
a block of ice?...heh seriously it will hibernate or start to when it gets around 54 degrees F or 8-12 C. it will be in hibernation within 24 hours of 8 C. make sure you have good substrate, that is loose and comfortable for it to make it easier to dig itself in, and the substrate itself has to be cold as well, doesn't need to be deeper then 2-3 inches for aspersa, cause they do not go that deep.you can put them in your fridge which is typically 36-38 F degrees to hold them at a steady temp for hibernation if you go on vacation even. in warmer climates, and I have been told aspersa do better if they hibernate for a period of two weeks or more, but I haven't read any official data on it that has been conclusive.
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lyco
Archachatina marginata
Posts: 15
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Post by lyco on Oct 11, 2011 2:46:24 GMT
Sorry to steal your thread but along the same lines, do GALS always hibernate? I know all the stuff about low temp resulting in hibernation where warming them up and/or running warm water over the aperture is an option. But is it important for them to go into hibernation? Is it the kind of thing that will happen if the temperature gets too low but is a thing a snail can live without for it's entire life?
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Post by hoodooman on Oct 11, 2011 7:57:41 GMT
That's a really good question, lyco. I would suspect they would not need to hibernate at all. In fact, Fulcas, being tropical, probably don't even have the mechanisms for true hibernation, it's probably more some type of semi-stasis meant for short term defense against low temperatures or dry spells, but maybe someone who is more familiar with GALS could say for sure.
I know that it's general consensus that you should NEVER try to hibernate an animal that is not fully healthy, and most vertebrate animals that hibernate in the wild can be prevented from hibernating without any real ill effects if the temp. is kept high enough. I have never hibernated my Russian tortoise (I've been afraid to), and they spend about 70% of their time in the wild in either hibernation or aestivation. My tortoise mentor kept Russian torts. for many years without hibernating them, although some people do. There is some debate about whether NOT hibernating leads to a somewhat shorter life span, but with animals like torts that tend to live very long lives and die of disease or accident rather than old age, it is really hard to tell. Hibernation is a very delicate time for most animals, and it would seem to me that there's no good reason to put your pet through that kind of risk without compelling evidence that it is necessary, but YMMV.
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 11, 2011 18:49:39 GMT
I agree with hoodooman, in theory, but not in practice. I haven't done conclusive testing on this, and there as usual is a lot involved when considering it. it is true though that aspersa do in fact live in areas which do not ever even get cold enough to hibernate (and gals certainly.) and it is also true as I've mentioned in past posts that hibernation does have many effects on a snails body, but not just that, the events leading UP to the hibernation have many effects on a snails body, and it is a process. people often look at the end result without taking into consideration it is a process. what triggers the process is a combination of many things surely, wavelength of light, amount of light, temperature, humidity, etc. all these things really effect snails throughout their lives, and these things change depending on the area the snail lives as well. I am and have been running studies on snails by coercing them into hibernation both at appropriate times and out of typical season to find out specifically, but it is a long process, and so far incomplete. I expect it to be for another year or two, but others have done some studies and have stated that indications are that they do benefit from a hibernation period. it is believed, after the process of preparing for hibernation, by those whose work I have read, their bodies undergo a change around the two week mark of going into hibernation. The work didn't say, but it is my suspicion that during the preprocess snails may consume more or maybe fatten up and slow their bodies down, guess I think of it sorta like a bear. and going into hibernation does without a doubt slow it's body down and have various other changes within it. once more peaking after the two week mark , when it starts to actually lose mass and moisture and has other effects, some of which are considered negative. If they are then brought out of that hibernation, the theory is, the positive effects are gained with the negative effects, namely the loss of mass and additional stress being negated. Is there anyone else with any conclusive information regarding this? in short though, it is surely best to be safe, to merely mimic the environment the creature in question lives in naturally. Thats always my go to answer. They live in that environment for a reason. Though some Aspersa live in areas that have hard winters, and some live in areas that have no winter at all. as hoodooman says though YMMV (Your mileage may vary....)
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Post by hoodooman on Oct 11, 2011 20:50:28 GMT
Out of curiosity, foghog, without getting too technical can you explain the changes that are supposed to occur at about 2 weeks? Also, have you ever kept any Aspersas without hibernating them at all, and if so, did it seem to have a noticeable effect on their life span? This is the main argument I have heard in favor of hibernating your pets--that and the fact that it is a normal part of their life in the wild, of course. As far as I know, however, no one has proposed a mechanism for why hibernation would extend life span, other than just speculation that the animals age at a greatly reduced rate while hibernating because of the general slowdown of all systems, but in that case I would not think two weeks would make much difference. Animals, including many snails, do of course hibernate in the wild, although I would be interested to know if Aspersas in areas such as southern California--or around here, for that matter, although I think in AZ humidity is probably the bigger issue--where the weather never becomes cold enough to necessitate hibernation do, in fact, go through any prolonged periods of dormancy in the winter. I would suspect not, but I don't really know for sure. In the wild, hibernation carries a fairly high level of mortality in many species due to failed hibernation--you can see that demonstrated in Aspersas by this pic on Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Helix_aspersa,_shell_cemetery.JPG (note that this can be a hard picture to look at for those who are emotionally attached to Aspersas, even though it is not at all graphic). However, in the wild, hibernation failure is usually caused either by temperatures becoming unusually low, individuals not accounting well enough for low temps (i.e. not digging deep enough, etc.) or most commonly running out of fat stores before the hibernation season has ended, either due to an especially long winter, or disturbances that cause more than average activity (this is why so called "white nose" disease is such a problem for little brown bats--the fungal infection causes them to awaken frequently from hibernation which uses up their fat stores faster than normal). All of this is unlikely in captive individuals being hibernated under carefully controlled conditions, but, as you say, there is so much going on both in the lead up to and the actual hibernation state itself that a lot can go wrong, especially in an individual that is not healthy to begin with, and rehabilitators routinely prevent sick or injured animals from hibernating for a season without any apparent ill effects--although, admittedly this is short term. Most animals will pack on weight prior to hibernation and then go through a period of fasting to clear the gut before initiating the hibernation state in order to prevent any left-over food material from decomposing during the period of inactivity. Hibernation is fascinating from a biological perspective, as it occurs in many species in vastly different genuses, (genii?) but I have no idea if the mechanisms are always even remotely similar. As I've mentioned before, almost all of my experience/training is with vertebrates and I am neither a scientist nor a vet. Invertebrates are a whole other ball of wax, (although they're a lot of fun, and in some ways even more fascinating, even if somewhat alien seeming sometimes although I know that recent discoveries are showing that many of the supposed differences are not as large as previously thought, especially when compared to microorganisms. Omar, my Russian tort, was a rescue and when I got him, he was in somewhat sorry shape--although with the proper diet, lighting, exercise and a little TLC, he has developed into quite a fine, healthy, and handsome specimen (or so I've been told) his back legs have even straightened out quite a bit and I thought by the time I got to him they would always be a little wonky. He's probably healthier than I am these days . Anyway, I didn't hibernate him the first year because of his condition, and since then, after much discussion with other tort keepers I have refrained from hibernating because I just haven't seen any compelling evidence to do it, and like many exotic animal keepers, I suspect, I am always nervous about things I haven't tried before. That, and it sucks to put your pet in the fridge for a few months ! And this is despite the fact that as I mentioned, in the wild Russian torts spend as much as two-thirds of the year inactive (and the other third eating voraciously to support these periods of inactivity). He does, however, exhibit what I refer to as bi-polar behavior, going through periods of up to a couple of months mostly lying around buried under the substrate, coming out once every day or two to eat and then burying himself again. When he comes out of these periods he is often hyper-active--at one point to the extent that it seemed he was training for some sort of athletic event--a tortoise marathon or something. I think it may be because he was wild caught (most Russians in the pet trade are) and his body is still somewhat synced to those rhythms. It used to drive me nuts trying to figure out what would set him off one way or the other--it seems it can be as little as a slight change in the ambient temps. over a long enough period, or his light beginning to put out less UVB, although sometimes he ignores these things, as well. I have just gotten used to it, although I tend to aim for regular steady activity as much as I possibly can maintain it, there are just too many variables that his body seems to read as cues one way or the other. Anyway, I would be interested to know what you find out, foghog. I tend to try to err on the side of safety with my pets, but that could always lead to being too conservative, as husbandry practices are improving all the time, and I am always willing to learn. Besides, I don't know much about snails yet anyway, that's why I'm hanging around here .
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lyco
Archachatina marginata
Posts: 15
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Post by lyco on Oct 11, 2011 23:34:00 GMT
Thanks for the help both, it's something to think about but I think your rule of thumb of always trying to give them the environment they inhabit in the wild is the way to go. If your doing just that then you'd expect the snails behavior to be rather natural and nothing to worry about. And thanks for the explination of TMMV, was a little confused by that Oh and tortoises Hoodooman? I spent my entire childhood obsessed with them but was never allowed one as a pet I actually haven't thought about them in a long time but I'm getting that urge again now
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 11, 2011 23:46:13 GMT
actually you bring up very good points, but it is my personal guess they may be misplaced (which also means they may not also, I just think so.) the picture you showed for instance, as well as your theory and view about the bat to me coincide with the real problem with hibernation in snails and other species specifically, which I tried to impress on by mentioning hibernation is a process. That process unfortunately breaks down when done to quickly. ie, rapid thaws that make the creature think it should come out of hibernation, then rapid cooling which freezes it. (part of this goes with what you mentioned above about losing fat, since the process does put stress, especially when the body wakes up more, it requires more energy....the key to this once more I believe is steady tempertures which keep it in hibernation) or something that forces it to come out of hibernation in the middle of winter. I think thats the explanation probably with the picture you showed. as is seen in the picture it has a wall with direct exposure to the sun. based on the shadow lines from the vegetation. it would be my guess that any snail hibernating or attempting to would be fooled into thinking the reflected warmth meant spring, wakes up in the middle of winter, the sun goes down or the snow storm comes and...well...no time for the process involved. this could happen daily, and no doubt does. I know nothing about turtles really, just the basics so cannot help you there...but I do know aspersa and snails especially mate and produce sexually due to the wavelenth and amount of light hours in a day. as indicated here: www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/AFSIC_pubs/srb96-05.htm "In warm, damp climates, H. aspersa may lay eggs as often as once a month from February through October, depending on the weather and region. Mating and egg-laying begin when there are at least 8 hours of daylight and continue until days begin to get shorter. In the United States, longer hours of sunlight that occur when temperatures are still too cold will affect this schedule, but increasing hours of daylight still stimulate egg laying. " That has been confirmed in numerous experimentation I have read. and more then a few feel ideal light hours are about 18 light to 6 dark. Furthermore it is a common practice according to heliculturists to force laying snails into hibernation. one instance showing this is this: escargot.free.fr/eng/snail.htm "Hibernation: only future breeders are placed in hibernation, in wooden boxes, well dried, and out of frost." Now what happens during hibernation for a aspersa, there is quite a lot actually that has been confirmed with experimentation and testing, for instance in layman terms antibodies for calmodulin. calmodulin is a calcium-binding protein and it has been shown to handle processes such as inflammation, metabolism, muscle contraction, intracellular movement, memory, nerve growth and the immune response. The same immunopositivity has been shown for cytoskeletal components. this is on a cerebral level. otherwise, there are many things that happen to the snails body as well, including for instance the changing of it's body and blood to prevent freezing. the body undergoes many changes to survive at such a slow rate as well. I've talked about some of them on the forum here in past discussions, but of course I do not know everything or even anything according to some, but according to many papers I have read it makes sense to me to initiate hibernation, for a period of two weeks and then bring them out for the year until the next cycle.
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Post by hoodooman on Oct 12, 2011 0:01:36 GMT
Lyco: I have had a lifelong attachment to turtles of all sorts, so I totally feel you. When I was young I bugged my mother ceaselessly until I finally wore her down and she agreed I could get a pet turtle. We got all the way to the pet store, and she saw the size of the turtles and freaked. They were just regular adult red-eared sliders or something like that, you know ~6" carapace size or so. I'm not sure what she was expecting. I guess in her day they sold tiny little baby turtles around 2" which are basically illegal now in the U.S. due to the added risk of Salmonella from kids putting them in their mouths or something (so it probably works out better for the turtles this way too). So, no pet turtle for me . That's probably why I got my first tort, actually. A tort probably would have been a better fit for me anyway--no tank cleaning, water changing, etc. I had enough of that with my fish, which were the only pets I was actually allowed to have (my sister was afraid of dogs, my mom hated cats, my mom was afraid of rodents, I'm not sure what the deal was with lizards but they were out too.) You didn't see many torts in pet stores back then, though, which was also probably for the best. Tort keeping has really come a long way since then, and especially before the introduction of self-ballasted mercury vapor lamps there was really no good way to keep a tort healthy unless you could let it outside for long periods to bask. If you decide to get serious about one, pm or e-mail me. Since you're in the U.K. I don't think I can recommend any breeders (I think the shipping time + customs would be a no-go) but I can point you to some excellent websites with good information, as well as a few forums that have some wonderful and very knowledgeable people on them, and they may be able to hook you up with a breeder. I would make sure to do your research first and decide what species is best for you though. If I had known I was going to be living in the desert, I probably would not have gotten the Redfoots, although I think once I get them hooked up with a misting system they will be fine. I just haven't worked out exactly how yet, and I have been having some pyramiding problems with their shells in the meantime. It's just cosmetic at this point, fortunately, but they really need more humidity than I've been able to maintain since their enclosure is pretty large and completely open. They did fine in Kansas, however. Torts are great--but I'll warn you, they tend to be addictive too, and they take up a lot more space than snails !
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Post by brunni on Oct 12, 2011 18:25:56 GMT
Achatina in Africa normally estivate during the "dry season", the length of which depends on rainfall patterns in their habitat country. This is variable and may result in two dormant periods per year. It would make sense to duplicate their natural cycle. Rain ( or an increase in humidity ) tends to "wake them up". Their hibernation cycle is not dependent on heat but on moisture. Limicolaria are known to seal themselves in to their shell with a callous plug during hibernation to conserve moisture, whilst Achatina form a thin, opaque membrane.
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Post by hoodooman on Oct 12, 2011 21:40:09 GMT
Foghog: I agree with you in theory, although I suspect I might not in practice . I did not mean to imply in any way that Aspersas might not benefit from a two-week period of enforced hibernation under controlled conditions. And, as I think I mentioned, most of the reasons I listed for typical hibernation failure in the wild have to do with either the lack of controllable conditions (i.e. freak unpredictable occurrences which are really not all that freak, nor unpredictable, i.e. it is fairly safe to assume they will sometimes occur, just not when, and the animals are often unable to cope) or some type of interference by an outside pathogen or other agent. BTW, I think the current theory for the shell cemetery in Scotland that I linked a pic of was a sudden unusual cold snap, but your theory is just as plausible. Also, in practice, there is a vast difference between hibernating your snails for a short time like two weeks, then bringing them out of it, and the protocol followed by most tort owners who hibernate--which is to induce a complete season of hibernation lasting several months or more. Perhaps I just don't have the nerves for that . Although, I do stand by my earlier statement that one should NEVER hibernate an individual that does not otherwise seem completely healthy. In practice, absent compelling evidence to the contrary--and I would really like to see evidence of outcomes, especially in areas other than reproductive success, which does not tend to be the concern of most pet owners--rather to the contrary with snails, I expect. We are constantly trying to reduce successful reproduction so we are not overrun!--my gut impulse would be to do what coyote does, and let the snails react naturally to the prevailing conditions they are kept in. Trying to mimic natural conditions is a very good general rule of thumb, but as you mention, with a species like H. Aspersa that has shown a remarkable ability to adapt to many different natural environments it becomes very hard to know what to use as a guide. On a more philosophical level, there is an inherent degree of artificiality in the practice of keeping animals as pets, dictated by everything from cost to the limits of current knowledge. More to the point, we deliberately do a lot of things that are unnatural specifically for the good of the animals: we eliminate predation, provide a constant readily available food supply, often--at least among good conscientious keepers--provide a better balance of nutrition than would be readily available, including supplements, while maintaining long-term, steady, best-case ranges of temperature and humidity. It could easily be argued that the goal of a pet keeper is not so much to provide a natural as an optimal environment for a particular animal or animals. Now, how to achieve that optimal environment will always be a matter of discussion and debate, and that's where staying abreast of the current science can be especially helpful. It is often difficult, however, to directly apply the results of a particular study or set of studies into actual real-world practices. Ideally, husbandry practices are always evolving and becoming better, especially in areas such as exotics where the amount we know is still so limited and there are much fewer guidelines, and the current state of scientific consensus should always be taken into account. However, I find that the best source of guidance in terms of actual practices is often the experience and observations of long-term successful keepers whose viewpoint you respect. Of course, there will always be philosophical differences, but those of us who truly want the best for our animals and are always looking to improve their practices are the ideal source of info on what seems to work and what doesn't, regardless of why. In a way we form our own research community and sample group as we are the only ones asking the questions we are truly interested in--i.e. how do I best provide an environment that will foster a long healthy and happy life for my pet(s). Scientists may often turn up pieces of information that can be very useful to us, but they are ultimately usually focused on quite different questions all together. That's why places like this forum where people can share their experience and expertise are so wonderful--especially in a hobby like snail keeping which is still somewhat uncommon and regarded by many people as just strange . It's also why we all need to stick together [Insert PSA message here ]. Lastly, I feel obligated to point out (since my wife nailed me on this last night when I mentioned this conversation, and was rather disappointed in me for not catching this ) that unless you are grossly oversimplifying for us laymen, you should probably re-check some of your facts, since snails cannot produce antibodies to anything as they lack an adaptive immune system . And if you are just oversimplifying, be aware that you have introduced some misleading concepts (Ellen's current area of research/expertise is invertebrate immunity, although she takes a comparative approach and is ultimately interested in looking at the evolution of immunity in general and innate immunity in particular [at least I think so ]).
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 13, 2011 9:21:19 GMT
ya...I did say antibodies didn't I? hmm....oops. it wasn;t about immunity it was about immunopositivity and intracellular systems, but ok so noted....
sure it usually helps being sane when making a point but it isn't always required.
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