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Post by hoodooman on Oct 10, 2011 9:26:50 GMT
Hi everybody, Despite the fact that I'm still in mourning for Hedwig my H. Aspersa who recently passed away (you can read the story of his rescue at the supermarket and ultimate tragic demise on the problems thread everyone here was so amazingly helpful and compassionate) apparently he may have been carrying a contagious form of snailitis, because for the past few days I've found myself really wanting to have a snail (or even SOME snails) around again. I was going to ask you guys some detailed questions about your husbandry practices--but after some basic research it appears that since I live in the U.S. (Arizona specifically) the biggest question is: Where do I get snails? I had not realized so many species were illegal in the States. I know for a fact that that does not stop their importation, because a friend of mine upon hearing of my pet snail issues recently told me of some GALS he had seen at a local pet store, but given the fact that they are illegal, I am highly conflicted about going that route. On the one hand, they will probably be confiscated and destroyed if no one takes them, but on the other it IS a hefty fine, and I probably shouldn't be discussing this here anyway. . . But what are my legal options for getting snails? In general I dislike buying animals (or anything else) from large chain pet stores as this just encourages them, and I have seen too much neglect, and am too aware of what goes on behind the scenes in the pet trade to really want to participate by giving them my money. I'm not above using them for last minute supply needs that come up unexpectedly--such as when my Russian Tortoise's basking light burned out unexpectedly a few weeks ago and I didn't have a spare on hand, but I try to avoid it if possible, and it always leaves a bad taste in my mouth--a little bit like going to Walmart, I suppose--plus there's the added issue of having to prevent myself from walking out with an armful of animals just to get them out of there . I had hoped to purchase some captive bred individuals from a reputable breeder that I found either from recommendations here, or elsewhere on the web, or even better a rescue that had some individuals they were having trouble placing (initially I figured it would be easy to obtain some Fulcas this way as I have heard that they're overpopulated in the pet trade, and I have a soft spot for animals like that) but after perusing the laws governing the transport of snails in the U.S. I can see why this is primarily an overseas hobby . I had also hoped to try a species other than H. Aspersa, just because I think it is too soon for that--I don't want to feel like I'm trying to replace Hedwig. Does anyone know what species are legal to keep in the U.S. by Federal law? Arizona does not appear to restrict any snails other than those restricted by the Federal government. Also this is apparently one of the few states that allows the import of snails--although I think you may need to apply for a permit. Maybe they figure the desert will keep them from spreading too far? Or maybe since we have been well and truly colonized by H. Aspersa (and have an agricultural quarantine placed on us to prove it!) that it's really just too late anyway . Although, despite that, I have not seen any Aspersas around my neighborhood and do not know where in Phoenix would even be conducive to them, other than maybe a greenhouse or vegetable field. Also, I have no desire to remove individuals from the wild. Does anyone have any information about where to obtain some of the less common species that are legal here? Foghog, I know you were looking for some H. Pomatia, if I am not mistaken, and this looks like a very attractive species to keep, but so far I have only found them available by the kilo, and I really don't want that many snails (I was thinking more like 2 to start, not thousands). If you succeed in locating some, I assume you are interested in breeding them (since you are looking for a pair) and I would be interested in taking a couple of babies off your hands, especially since you are down here quite a bit anyway . At this point, I am really just trying to figure out what my options are, since the snail scene in the States is apparently a lot more complicated/difficult than I had any idea it would be. If someone who has been at this a lot longer could take the time to explain the ins and outs, I would really appreciate it, and I'm sure other interested Stateside would-be snail keepers could benefit from the info as well. Thanks.
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myrtle
Achatina achatina
Posts: 52
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Post by myrtle on Oct 10, 2011 9:39:58 GMT
Snailitus a very dangerous illness COZ once you've had one.......you have to get another& another & another
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 10, 2011 16:16:12 GMT
The only species genus that is banned outright in all states is Achatina, Others are 'regulated (note it is regulation not LAW) unless you receive a PPQ permit to transport. and you can get said permit by filling out a PPQ 526 or a PPQ 586. Arizona I do not believe has any regulation preventing ownership of any other species. there are about 6-7 states that do not. you can own pomatia or aspersa no problem at all, or anything else really, I believe. I think the govt. should spend its time worrying about the tons of cocaine, the very real truth of child slavery and kidnappings, and many other things instead of good people owning pets inside their homes personally though. and once more...they are regulations, not law. Some twit who had a fight with his wife the night before, or got conned into supporting it made the regulations, not representatives hired by the people, or enabled by our countries constitution and founding.
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Oct 10, 2011 16:58:59 GMT
To get a permit for snails, you need to prove you are an educator or researcher, and have the credentials to back it up.
Otherwise, you have some options for other species. You can peruse the Classified section of this board to see if by chance someone is offering a species best suited to you, or you can find out which species are native to your area if you decide against your self-imposed ban on collecting from the wild. Keep in mind that a lot of the individuals of species that are of interest to you may have been wild-caught, so you need to consider whether you are going to insist that yours are all captive-bred. All of my snails are wild-caught (except for my current garlic snails, which are Gilroy's great-great-great-great-great-great grandchildren), and the local snail populations are not affected by it. (But I also do not collect threatened native species either, preferring to leave them in the wild where they can continue to populate their habitat.)
One thing to keep in mind regarding native species is that a lot of them live in special habitats and require unique food sources, such as algae that can be difficult to cultivate in captive conditions. A lot of research would be needed before keeping such species.
And foghog, I think the government "twit" was bowing to pressure from the agricultural industry, not an argument with his wife, to ban GALS in the US.
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 10, 2011 18:40:10 GMT
And foghog, I think the government "twit" was bowing to pressure from the agricultural industry, not an argument with his wife, to ban GALS in the US. ya...maybe....or maybe not..... :-)
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Oct 11, 2011 19:03:55 GMT
Foghog, please don't make negative personal statements about people you don't even know. "Some twit who had a fight with his wife the night before, or got conned into supporting it" is crossing the line. If you don't like the laws, criticize them, but no more personal attacks on people.
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Post by ness on Oct 11, 2011 19:34:25 GMT
Oooh Hoodooman I think many people would be tempted to buy the illegal Achatina from the pet store. You could indeed be potentially saving them, but then you'll know that you have illegal snails, and should you be found out that won't end well for either you or the snails. You do run the risk of getting attached to them and having to hand them over to be destroyed, plus you would have to face what ever penalty is dished out to you. Also if you buy them you are potentially feeding the illegal trade. The government has a very good reason to ban them, should even one fulica escape in a year-round warm climate the potential for damage to the eco system is huge. It's happened before and although I haven't got the figures in front of me, it costs a whopping load of dollars to eradicate rogue fulica!
Maybe you could contact your local zoological society to be pointed in the right direction for advice on which species can naturally be found where?
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Post by hoodooman on Oct 11, 2011 23:35:03 GMT
The personal lives of Federal, or in this case State regulators notwithstanding--and I really don't care to speculate, I don't need those kinds of images in my head --unfortunately I think the real problem is the number of irresponsible exotic pet owners out there. IMHO, they are the real "twits." That could just be a result of my particular background, though. Before moving out here to Arizona, we spent about five years living in Lawrence, Kansas, while Ellen did her postdoc. As there were no high-end digital pre-press jobs to be found (that was where my experience was, as that was the industry I was in while Ellen was in grad-school and apparently the printing industry in Kansas is rather sparse, and at least at that point about ten years behind what I was used to in terms of technology, so my skills were not in as much demand as I had expected, based on my experience on the East coast) I decided to go back to school to finish my bachelor's--the first time I was an undergrad, a combination of having no idea what I wanted to do with my life and a firm determination not to let my schoolwork get in the way of my education led me to spend about five and a half years getting most of three degrees, finishing none, and ending up with a number of semesters on academic probation and parents who had decided that they had invested more than enough money in my education, given the returns. I think I only lasted that long because I was going to a State school and college was a lot cheaper back then. Anyway, I spend a couple of years getting a degree in History and re-taking almost all my gen-ed courses as the requirements at Kansas were almost completely incompatible with the requirements where I had gone before, and I was in the process of trying to find an adviser/program to do grad school in Medieval Japanese History of all things that would be compatible with Ellen's search for a tenure track position when mid-semester I suffered a case of hard-core burnout. This was the same time I was getting heavily into tortoise keeping and it really hit home the day I showed up to my adviser's graduate seminar and announced to the other four students and my mentor that "I have absolutely nothing to say about Herman Ooms' Tokugawa Ideology, but does anyone want to see pictures of my new tortoise?" I had been talking to a lot of people involved in animal rescue around that time and had kind of a Catcher in the Rye moment where I decided that maybe I could be perfectly happy spending the rest of my life caring for abandoned, injured, and unwanted tortoises. Since I had neither the background or the inclination to go the vet tech route (that mostly involves things like cutting the claws off house cats and such anyway) I got certified in Wildlife Rehab and got a job at the local Nature Center which allowed me to get a State Rehab license and I was hoping to learn enough to eventually open my own shelter. I had to give it up for a while, though, about six months before we left because I contracted a viral infection of my heart that led to cardiomyopathy and a near-fatal episode of congestive heart failure . I have since been very lucky and made a virtually complete recovery without a transplant, but the whole affair left me with chronic neuropathic pain which severly limits my ability to do heavy labor. It doesn't seem quite fair--but hey, I'm still alive and I still have my original heart so it's all good ! Anyway, between that and lack of space and resources, I haven't gotten back into rescue/rehab work as much as I would like, and these days unless something is put in my path (like Hedwig!) I mostly concentrate on taking the best care I can of the animals I have, but I am still interested in doing more at some point. Anyway, I got a little sidetracked with the biographical sketch, but what I meant to say was that while I was working at the Nature Center I saw and/or heard things that led me to conclude that there are many people that have attitudes toward their animals that are just incomprehensible to me. We had a South American Caiman in residence at the Center that had been picked up just wandering the streets of downtown Topeka! But everything from people keeping exotic pets primarily as status symbols (for some reason some snake owners seem particularly bad about this) to college students getting a "cool" pet that they either can't take with them when they change housing, or gets a lot bigger than they expect. Also people who impulse buy something that looks "cute" without any idea of the care it requires, or even well meaning individuals taken advantage of by pet stores that sucker them into taking on baby animals without any idea of the care they will need when they grow up, and then handing them a generic and often totally inaccurate "care" sheet. And somehow they all think they can just dump their pets off somewhere or just let them loose when they get too big/expensive/inconvenient and either someone else will deal with it, or the animal will somehow fend for itself in the "wild" a hemisphere away from it's natural habitat ! For example, baby African Spur-Thighed Tortoises (Sulcatas) are incredibly cute, but as adults the males can top out at upwards of 250 lbs. and be very aggresive during mating season. The females do not get quite as big/aggressive, but they don't really have to be. I have a friend who breeds torts. who owns a 50 lb Sulcata and he is already capable of walking through a sheet-rock wall if he feels like it. They are also over-populated in the U.S. pet trade already, no zoo will take them (they usually already have several) and they can burrow up to 70 feet. No one in the U.S. has any business breeding Sulcatas, but they do. There was a pet store in Lawrence that carried them (to be fair the owner did keep the adults in the shop so people did get some idea of how big they would end up--but still, the climate in Kansas means you have to over-winter a Sulcata inside. Unless you own a farm or are willing to let them completely take over your yard as well as a substantial tortoise shed, I don't know what you would do.) The general consensus of both the staff at the center and the other herp. keepers I knew was that every time someone does something irresponsible with an animal like a Caiman, a Sulcata, a Burmese python, or even a garden variety iguana (which can reach six feet and actually do not make very good pets due to their surly disposition, IMO) it puts the whole hobby at risk, and it seems that snail keeping has an even more unfavorable legal situation and less infrastructure to support it than some other exotic pets--which kind of surprised me actually. I think that the bottom line is that until you can prevent situations like the boy/mother who were responsible for the now infamous Fulca invasion of Florida, it is going to be very difficult to convince legislators OR regulators with little or no knowledge of the specifics of any given species that there are quite a few responsible individuals who are easily capable of keeping some of these exotic animals in good conditions with virtually no danger of them colonizing the environment. The media doesn't help either. When I lived in Baltimore, the invasive species threat du jour was some kind of Chinese fish called the "snakehead" that showed up in a local pond due to a couple of captive individuals being released by a local keeper. It didn't amount to anything except for several Sci-Fi channel original movies that are truly hilarious if you were around for the actual incident, but once again, lots of bad press. I'm not sure what the answer is, other than education, and people in the hobby working together to expand the resources available. This site, for example, is the kind of thing that we need a lot more of. To get a little bit more back on topic, no one knows of any full or part time U.S. breeders that would be willing to work with me to ship to Arizona (all of the classifieds seem to be U.K. or E.U. and aside from being impractical, I believe that importing anything from out of the country is illegal--please correct me if I'm wrong, foghog). Or for that matter, any fellow hobbyists that would be willing to ship some babies or even eggs? I'm not looking for anything very exotic--I'd like to start with something that doesn't require too much complexity, or highly specialized diet/care. I'm just not really sure I want to do Aspersas again right now, and I wanted to find out what else was available. As for my take on wild caught vs. captive bred individuals, I guess I am probably a little hypocritical. I don't like to remove individuals from the wild myself (and I think it might be difficult to find some around here, anyway. Ellen has been checking the supermarket, but so far no more hitchhikers have turned up and I don't think the desert is the best place to find snails) and I like to buy captive bred if possible, just because I like to encourage that sort of thing, as I think it is the best way to establish a supply for enthusiasts without affecting the environment. Although coyote is absolutely right in pointing out that there is a big difference between a species that is at risk and one like H. Aspersa that is in no danger, and is in fact considered an undesirable pest in many places (In fact according to Wikipedia, Glendale, which begins about eight blocks from where I live is actually importing snails to eat the Aspersas: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decollate_snail . I wonder where that will lead?) but once an individual has been removed from the wild it is more or less "in the system" so to speak as it is a general rule to NEVER release an individual that has been in captivity or been captive bred back into the wild as they could be carrying pathogens that do not exist in the wild population. The already threatened Desert Tortoise population in California was badly ravaged by respiratory disease several years ago as a result of this, and it is also why the state of AZ in combo with the Desert Museum in Tuscon has the Desert Tortoise adoption program. So once you have a WC individual that cannot be returned to the wild, the options are either for someone to take care of it, or for it to be destroyed, and I would rather take care of it (although I can see the argument that this just encourages more capture of wild snails). It's really not a situation with a good answer, and another reason the pet trade sucks. Anyway, back to my original question, does anyone know of a source of snails other than H. Aspersa in the U.S. or would any U.S. snail keepers care to share the story of how they came by their snails? Help a brother out?
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coyote
Archachatina papyracea
Cochleas ego amo
Posts: 2,955
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Post by coyote on Oct 13, 2011 6:07:02 GMT
I've found all my snails within 10 miles of my house, by knowing where to look. Check any creeks that originate in limestone-rich mountains, if there are any nearby. Check the areas around garden centers and nurseries (snails escaping from horticultural merchandise), and check the area around any places that sell imported tile (snails often hitch-hike in that way). Go to any local nature preserves, wildlife refuges, or state or county parks and ask to talk to the staff biologist to get info about the snail species found locally and what kind of habitats they prefer. Then go for a walk and keep your eyes peeled for little gastropods. ETA: Also check the produce at local farmer's markets, especially organic produce, as those are most likely to be harboring any snail stowaways (and occasional slugs too).
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 13, 2011 8:37:42 GMT
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Post by hoodooman on Oct 13, 2011 19:13:13 GMT
Yeah, well, I thought I knew how things worked . Part of the point of this thread was to either attract the attention or get pointed toward a supplier of some common species in the U.S. Ideally, I was hoping for a small/part time breeder who was also a hobbyist and might be willing to remain available via e-mail for the occasional question and/or freak-out when something unexpected happened--since that's the usual state of affairs with unfamiliar animals. I expected such people might hang around a forum like this to exchange information, pick up tips, etc. That's how I met a lot of the tort. keepers/breeders whose opinions I respect. In these types of hobbies a lot of times it seems to me that word of mouth recommendations are more useful/accurate than advertising. But, more to the point, I have not been able to find any suppliers on-line of whatever scale that are not UK/EU/African based. I had kind of wanted to know what kind of snails I would be getting in order to optimize my setup before they arrived. I am amazed at how difficult it is to come by a supplier of H. Pomatia, given they are the classic escargot snail and I would think would be in high demand at least commercially. The closest I have been able to come is a Pomatia farm in Brazil, and I don't know how the logistics would work with that. Given the reproductive proclivities of snails, I figured that at some point, if nothing else, there would be someone looking to find a home for some unwanted (due to space, etc. not desire) babies. Don't get me wrong--I would be willing to pay whatever a fair price would be, that's not the issue. I just can't find someone to sell me snails! I can find tons of internet sites touting how much money can be made by snail farming--but none of them mention where to get your start-up snails either. I would advertise in the classifieds, but especially since if I had to pick a species right now it would probably be H. Pomatia, I didn't want to step on your toes, foghog. BTW, have you had any luck finding any? Or by any chance does anyone know of another pet snail forum that is more U.S. based where I might have more luck? I'm not sure a nature walk around here would yield much right now (maybe this winter) especially as snails are primarily nocturnal and I have no desire to be devoured by coyotes, rattlesnakes, or the chupacabra while waving a flashlight around a riverbed in the dark (I can just see trying to explain that to a park ranger--dude, I was just trying to kidnap some snails! ;D) Besides, I think most of the native species around here have fairly specialized requirements with regard to habitat, etc. and I was looking to start with something, well, easier for lack of a better term. (Dude, I was just trying to kidnap some easy snails! ). Oh well, the search goes on.
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 13, 2011 21:20:15 GMT
you didn't step on my toes. :-) coyotoe suggested going out...the url I gave was to show you there are plenty of species in AZ for you to go out and get if you were to chose to do so. besides you are in the border to mexico...I have never had any problem getting anything I ever wanted regardless of what it was when I am out west...I'm sure you can manage well. pomatia can be shipped to mexico btw easily.....as well as anything else...and it is perfectly legal for you to keep them as pets down there.....maybe visit them on the weekends like they were children after a divorce......lol....or whatever other solutions/arrangements you want to work out. maybe have someone who makes regular trips there back and forth bring you current pictures of them during the week.......If you do not know of anyone specifically, you can probably go by some of the day workers sites, like home depot parking lots, talk to a few people and surely find many who know someone who can accommodate your needs........They have drug mules down there who walk across the border with a kilo of coke for $50 USD.....I am sure if it is something totally legal and on the up and up it can be done for quite a lot less..
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Post by hoodooman on Oct 20, 2011 8:10:54 GMT
ROFLMAO! Thanks for the suggestion, foghog . Although, have you been to northern Mexico lately? I haven't, nor do I intend to--It's a freaking war zone down there, what between the Gulf Cartel and the Zetas shooting it out for territory, and Felipe Calderón deciding to go nuclear and militarize the drug war. There are federal troops in full uniform with assault rifles patrolling the streets and manning checkpoints, and they're the ones wearing ski masks! The other day, our Sheriff, the pride of Maricopa County, the ever-popular (and most likely mentally unbalanced ) Joe Arpaio, self-proclaimed "toughest sheriff in America, (who runs prison camps in the Sonoran desert for non-violent drug offenders where he makes them all wear pink underwear, but that's a whole different issue. . . ) was on Lawrence O'Donnell, announcing on national TV that he thinks we should take U.S. troops and invade Northern Mexico. My wife has a friend and colleague who started at the University at the same time she did and shares lab space with her who grew up in the El Paso barrio and may have some relatives on the other side--I don't remember--who has said you couldn't pay him enough to go down there these days. Which kind of sucks, because I figured now that I was living in Arizona I should do the Tijuana thing at least once ! But, anyway, I think it might take more than $50 to persuade someone to bring my "letters" over. Although, right now I'm working a few other angles, but if they fall through, I'll keep the idea in mind ;D. On a side--but related--note, I was perusing the relevant section of the Arizona statutes the other day and it occurs to me the if someone who is not me (but may or may not be my pet Russian Tortoise Omar, whom I often suspect is up to something, or possibly has a score to settle--although that could just be because he has a mysterious, shadowy past and a rather roguish looking scar on his face under one eye, and goes through periods when he exercises like Martin Sheen at the beginning of Apocalypse Now. If he ever learns to do pull-ups I'm going to have to move him to a different enclosure because there will be no stopping him then--and I've seen him try. Fortunately torts are too dense to climb without their back legs and even Freddy Kruger claws slide right off smooth plastic . Ellen says she's not going to worry until she comes down in the morning to discover he's tattooed L=O-V-E on one set of knuckles and H-A-T-E on the other, but I keep my cell phone away from the tort area when he's in one of these phases, as I have no desire to receive a package from Chechnya containing a briefcase with a tiny set of tortoise-sized night-vision goggles and the unassembled sections of a miniature sniper's rifle! ) but if someone who isn't me were to buy/rescue some GALS from a local pet store, I don't think it would be illegal for them to own them in the state of Arizona, as long as they kept the receipt demonstrating they also purchased them in Arizona. Arizona itself has no regulations/restrictions on any mollusks other than the Zebra Mussel. They have no actual law against owning an Achatina species (probably because it was considered unnecessary) and my understanding is that the Federal government has no laws against keeping GALS, only importing them, or moving them across state lines. I believe that this is because the usual understanding of the separation of powers clause in the U.S. Constitution does not give the Federal gov't the ability to regulate what pets people may own in their homes, that power is reserved to the states, so they can only address the issue from the standpoint of foreign relations (i.e. importing) or interstate commerce (i.e. moving them across state lines). So if a person were to be in possession of GALS, but could demonstrate that they, themselves, did not import them, I'm not sure if any statutes would have been violated. It's a little like smoking under the age of 18--there's no law against it, just against selling cigarettes to minors. So a cop isn't going to confiscate your cigarettes, although they can try to bust the store that sold them to you. Although, while this would prevent the person with the GALS from being charged and/or fined, I don't know if it would prevent the confiscation and destruction of the snails. On the other hand, how often do APHIS officials show up at your door to inspect your pets? Anyway, food for thought. . . ;D
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foghog
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 235
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Post by foghog on Oct 21, 2011 22:00:57 GMT
forget showing you bought them at wherever and just show them somewhere you found it on the ground....if it is ok to own and not against the law there then you need not sell out someone else on it. it might be 'weird' that there are no other's in the area and was merely just that lone GAL wandering around in the desert like a horse with no name...but well...weirder things have happened, and it's sorta hard to prove one way or the other....... also hard to proven you even knew it was a GAL in the first place... "what?! you mean that is some weird type of snail? golly I don;t know what types of snails are what...I just sorta thought it was neat looking crawling on the ground." "But sir, that particular type of snail only lives in X area and is never here." "Oh...well then I guess you should go look for whomever must of got it from somewhere else and let it go here on the ground then, cause thats where I got it from....maybe it was my russian turtle that had it shipped in though...he has been acting strange and getting tattoos lately...." possession of a animal does not infer illegal transportation of one.
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