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Post by natrat84 on Sept 8, 2005 12:25:34 GMT
Hiya Having just read Pauls reply over on cyber snail about cross breeding snails... I have an idea with my Marvin/Tetley. If I get eggs I am going to be scared to hatch them for fear of getting 300 fulica. As far as I am aware my fulica have not mated. So. Do I take the other 3 fulica out of the tank and place on their own so any eggs I get there will definatly be fulica. In the tank their in now would just be my 2 brixton tigers, and Marvin. So if I got eggs it would be either tigers, or fulica/tigers. Cross breeds fascinate me. I have to say I would love to have cross bred babies. But would it be 'right' to try and hatch them if I got them? Cross bred dogs are normally very strong healthy animals. Its in-bred we worry about, but not cross bred. Need advice! Thanks Nat  |
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Post by sezzy5889 on Sept 8, 2005 12:28:33 GMT
I say go for it, i would whatever the outcome
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Kevin
Archachatina dimidiata
Posts: 2,227
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Post by Kevin on Sept 8, 2005 12:37:29 GMT
I'm not sure what I think about cross-breeding, personally I wouldnt purposly try to cross-breed my adult snails by keeping ones that can cross-breed together, I'm not against "hybrids" though, I have a Corn Snake x King Snake- which is a beautiful snake, I remember a "debate" on another forum where someone said that dogs dont cross-breed, something about all domestic ones being one species, with different "varieties" or something when I argued my case in favour hybrids ;D
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Kevin
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Post by Kevin on Sept 8, 2005 12:41:14 GMT
thats silly so a chihuahua and a st bernard are the same  Im sure he said they're all the same species, the thread was a whille back, and on another forum, but I'll try to find it. |
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Post by sezzy5889 on Sept 8, 2005 12:46:19 GMT
what about
dolfs
mules
ligers
zorses
degus
jerds
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Kevin
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Post by Kevin on Sept 8, 2005 12:46:29 GMT
An excert from the discussion
QUOTE(KevDavies @ Apr 30 2005, 02:34 PM)
I have a Corn snake x ruthvens king snake, and I have no problem with people cross-breeding snakes....Dogs, Cats and other "domestic" animals have been "cross-bred" for colour, hair, shape etc for thousands of year's, People who keep reptiles should be allowed to cross-breed whatever compatible snakes they keep (as long as they know what their doing and know that it wont harm the snakes and offspring in the long-term) without being ridiculed in my opinion, I mean they probably arent going to release them into the wild are they? Its not natural, but neither is keeping snakes in plastic boxes with newspaper for substrate (which I do and dont object to)
Just my opinion.
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InyokaMadoda
Apr 30 2005, 02:55 PM
The examples you quote are not correct. Dogs, cats and other domestic animals are totallly different. All dogs kept at home are the same species, there are just different 'breeds' of dog. It is exactly the same as someone breeding for albinism or stripes or whatever, in the herping community. A dog would not be bred with a cat for example. these are different species, but breeding a German Shepherd with an Afghan Hound would just be the same species but different 'morphs' if you like.
Cross species breeding just can't be right.
My opinion.
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KevDavies
Apr 30 2005, 03:04 PM
The example with dog's was justified, all dog's are part of one species? what about Wolves? ive seen wolf x dog "hybrids" not "morphs" Snakes are lumped together into different groups also, is a Taiwanese Beauty and Chinese Beauty cross breed considered a cross-breed or a different morph?? where do you mark the line?
Cats are also cross-bred with no morals raised, ive seen domestic Cats crossed with different species (Scottish Wild Cat, Jungle Cats etc..)
What about a cross between a Pine and Bull Snake, or a gopher snake all are pituphids (sp??) and are very closely related, they may even cross-breed in the wild, they will be hybrid's though, are you against this?? (EDIT:yes you are by your post, posted before I replied) I accept that you only keep the wild-types of Snakes, its your choice, it doesnt make it wrong to keep morphs and hybrids though....I know what would sell better in any shop a wild colour Corn Snake or some bright, unusual Corn Morph...I see no problem with it
This post has been edited by KevDavies: Apr 30 2005, 03:09 PM
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InyokaMadoda
Apr 30 2005, 03:11 PM
First of all, dogs have been domesticated and bred directly from wolves many hundreds of years ago, so all dogs are descended from wolves. This has been done so much over so long that the two are now separate species. Yes. I am against dog x wolf hybridisation.
With snakes (and all animals) I draw the line in one simple place: If two animals are separate species, they should not be crossed.
If this happens in nature, then fair enough. Evolution is a curious thing that we don't yet fully understand the long term ramifications of and as such, we shouldn't go 'creating' new types of animals ourselves before you raise that issue.
Pine and Bull snake crosses.... yes they are related, but so are lions and cheetahs. Would you cross them? No, of course you wouldn't but it's the same thing.
With regards to morphs, if that is your thing, then go for it. As long as you are a responsible keeper, then I have no great problem with this. For me, it's natural types all the way.
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Kevin
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Post by Kevin on Sept 8, 2005 12:48:05 GMT
what about dolfs mules ligers zorses degus jerds I have Degu's, not only are they not hybrids, but are they're own order, Octodonts. Jirds arent crossbred animals either, The others you mentioned are cross-bred animals though, im not denying animals cant be cross-bred ;D |
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Post by sezzy5889 on Sept 8, 2005 12:51:09 GMT
well they all seem to be fine cross-breds Wolfs and dogs are decendents from one another so are horses and donkey, horses and zebras and tigers and lions. All snails decend from one so i don't see a problem in crossbreeding them  |
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Kevin
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Post by Kevin on Sept 8, 2005 12:59:42 GMT
well they all seem to be fine cross-breds Wolfs and dogs are decendents from one another so are horses and donkey, horses and zebras and tigers and lions. All snails decend from one so i don't see a problem in crossbreeding them I dont mind cross-breeds, like I mentioned I have a cross-bred snake, bred from two completly different species, I confess though I bought him because of his beautiful colour, pattern and temperent, and picked him over "normal" corn snakes. I was just mentioning that most dogs (apart from the obvious wolves etc) arent cross-breed's, I wouldnt cross-breed my snails, I like all the species as they are, maybe fulica would be the ideal choice for a cross-breed though as they're so common. I apologise if I seem argumentative. |
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Post by natrat84 on Sept 8, 2005 13:30:45 GMT
Hmmm
Me and erm, I can't remember now, But I was talking to someone about this the other day. 'breeds' can breed together. 'Species' can but don't often.
But I wondered why... Dog is the name of the species, and each variation is a 'breed' So why in snails is each different one called a species. To me 'achatina' or achatendae (sp) is the species, and all variations are 'breeds'. Inside they work the same, everything does the same. They just look different. Colours, sizes etc.
So why is dimidiata for example, a species of snail and not a breed of achatina.
Nat
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Kevin
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Posts: 2,227
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Post by Kevin on Sept 8, 2005 13:35:30 GMT
Hmmm Me and erm, I can't remember now, But I was talking to someone about this the other day. 'breeds' can breed together. 'Species' can but don't often. But I wondered why... Dog is the name of the species, and each variation is a 'breed' So why in snails is each different one called a species. To me 'achatina' or achatendae (sp) is the species, and all variations are 'breeds'. Inside they work the same, everything does the same. They just look different. Colours, sizes etc. So why is dimidiata for example, a species of snail and not a breed of achatina. Nat Thats a good point, they are listed as seperate species though (I dont know why? Im sure someone does) maybe something to do with they're biology? some being egg-layers or live-bearing, egg clutches, etc? |
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Post by Paul on Sept 8, 2005 14:22:36 GMT
I see no problem at all with cross-breeding. However I would advise some caution simply in who gets the babies. I'd only rehome any crossbreeds to people you know are diligant owners. It is hard enough identifying snails, if crossbreds got out into the general population we'd not have clue if we were sent some.
Bequaert does consider each snail type a species. How is a species defined? And is it the same for all animals or relative to that group. There may be less difference between them than in other animals.
I think that stability probably defines a species. I assume Dingos are considered a different species than wolves and yet they are related. A crossbreed's offspring will not all be true to the parents particularly, rather they would have throw backs to their original strains. The dog thing is tricky; if a St. Bernard had been found in the wild it probably would be considered a distinct species. It is the fact that most types of dog are man-made that they don't get counted, and yet after 10000 years of domestication, we have stable breeds.
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