Shells are peeling off! (Periostracum Issue)

[Liguus]

Today I noticed the shells on my Helix aspersa's are peeling off! Not the whole thing, I just mean the outside surface is peeling off, leaving a "dull & dusty" color underneath. There are also some cracks in their shells.

I thought maybe it's a calcium deficiency, but I have had cuttlebone in there for months and I always see them eating it. Their diet consists of: dog food, fish pellets, oats, leafy greens, and carrots. I always used bottled water to spray them down.

Anybody have any idea as to whats going on?

Also, I DON'T use peat, but coconut fiber, so I don't think the soil is acidic enough to degrade their shells. 

Can snails regenerate this outside layer? 

[Liguus]

Let me attempt to answer my own question here:

I figured out that this layer is called the Periostracum and is composed largely of protein structures. I have never actually considered the snail shell to be a "permeable membrane" but maybe since this outside layer was able to deteriorate due to some issue, maybe it can regenerate? I will see if I can find a source which explains if this layer is being constantly secreted through the shell.

I also thought maybe I would try to give them more nutrients (Fluckers cricket feed) and maybe some Fish oil? I figured that maybe the protein or calcium isn't being deposited properly because of a deficiency in some other nutrient. Does anyone know if they need/can have fish oil in their diet? Is there a good source of/do snails need vit D?

Maybe I should get a larger variety of colorful veggies for them cause it looks like greens aren't enough.

I never considered their diet was so complicated! It seems to me like naturally H. aspersa would only be eating nettles/grass/or clovers. I don't believe their getting a mixed salad, meat, oatmeal, and vitamins everyday in the wild!

[Liguus]

Ok so:
I went to Petco and looked through all their reptile/fish food and supplements. I bought "Fluckers high calcium cricket diet" and "Hikari Crab cuisine"

Flukers has Vitamins D3, B12, E, A, zinc sulfate, ferrous sulfate, calcium iodate AND....COPPER SULFATE! (I guess i skipped over that while in the pet store. I know snails don't like copper, so I'm not going to feed them fluckers until I know its safe)

Hikari Crab cuisine however says it has nutrients to promote proper shell development in crustaceans. I know crustaceans and mollusks are different, but since both have an outer "shell' made of protein compounds and calcium compounds, maybe they need/use similar nutrients to process that calcium and protein.

Hikari has: Fish meal, corn, rice, & soy meal, krill meal, fish oil, dried yeast, garlic(can they eat this safely???), astaxanthin, canthaxanthin, choline chloride, Vit E, C, D3, & B12, B8, menadione sodium bisulfate complex (source of Vit K activity), ferrous sulfate, magnesium sulfate, cobalt sulfate, and calcium iodate.

[Liguus]

Also, I didn't think of "sunlight being needed for Vit D production" to apply to snails. I never actually put them by a window or anything because I figured they like the dark/shade. Maybe even though they are not active during the day, sunlight still travels through the shell and helps it out in someway.

I also saw that this is exactly what happens to snail shells after they die (periostracum deterioration) I better fix this fast! They seem active and otherwise healthy, so hopefully the crab food nutrients will help rebuild the shell.

[Liguus]

I'm replying to this thread like a madman... But I just can't believe this happened to all my snails! Especially since I want to expand my collection, not kill everything!

I swear they were fine a week ago with glossy shells!

I did add a bunch of live plants to my terrarium, and think I followed the "safe plant" post on here. I noticed however that they have been eating the leaves of the prayer plant I added. Could it be making them sick? I'm not sure if its a coincidence that this shell damage happened a few days after they started eating the prayer plants. Maybe they're some compound in the prayer plant which is detrimental to molluscs...

[etana]

I see you're doing a whole lot of work finding things out! That's commendable!

Anyhow, yes, snails need vitamin D and sunlight is one way for that. There are also supplements and some vitamin D high foods.


I think that in the wild, snails' favourite foods are for example nettles (nettles are very high in nutrients!) and that's why you see snails on them so often, but if you followed a single snail, I'm sure he'd nibble at various different fresh and dead plants, dead animals (especially dead snails), surfaces with calcium in them, etc, during the time he's awake. So yeah nobody cooks them oatmeal outside, but the diet is varied.

[Zorst]

Main thing is DON'T PANIC, you can sort this out without to much stress on your part. Add in wild foods to there diet like nettles, plantain leaves, Dandelion leaves, sow thistle, mushrooms that have been exposed to UV light / natural day light, also hard boiled eggs.

Low level sun light so that you don't put them in direct sunlight all day as it would get to hot in a tank. they say about 10 mins is enough for a human daily to get enough Vit D. the other thing is you could consider a UV light bulb for a short time per day.

Another thing is lack of calcium can mean that Vit D isn't absorbed properly.

Zorst

[Liguus]

I will start opening the curtains near the tank now to see if it improves.

Also about 15 min from my house there's an area with plantain and nettles. It's wild, so there is no pesticides. I'll go there today and get some. Maybe even plant it in the terrarium.

[Liguus]

Ok, I got them Vit D3 (1000 IU) liquid pills. Also something called "Veggie Festiv" in powder form, Hair skin and nails pills, and Omega3. I will sprinkle this on their food each meal.

I was even thinking of even grinding all these pills up into a "feed" for them with crab food, dog food, and dried fruit. I have no idea about the dosage of Vitamins I should add in proportion to the feed though. I'll see that I can find.

I also rubbed the Vit D and Omega 3 oil on their shells. I know it wont do much to repair it but maybe it will at least "seal" the surface of the shell.

I will post updates if these snails show signs of repair.

[starcrazy19]

Once this layer of shell is gone, it won't grow back, it is secreted by the mantle when the shell is first laid down. The snail can heal shell damage from the inside, anywhere on the shell, but not replace this layer.

It won't harm them to lose the top layer, except they may be more suceptable to acid damage but you seem confident their substrate is not acidic.

Dead snails lose this layer of shell because they are laying out in the open and exposed to the elements; it wears away over time, older snails will have significantly more wear especially wild snails living in a rougher environment.

Having said all that, your snails peeling does look pretty drastic, are they wild-caught and/or old? It sounds like this happened very suddenly from your story. Anyway if a nutrient deficiency caused this, it will have been when the shell was being built, not now. Its not like our skin Helix aspersa are tough little guys, they don't need an obsessively regulated diet; lots of varied veg and wild plants. Mushrooms are a good source of vitamin D. Adding calcium/D liquid supplement to their spray bottle might be a good idea too.

Don't dose all their food with supplements, this will prevent the snails self-regulating their mineral intake. They can overdose on these things.

[Liguus]

These snails were caught from the wild, and sent to me in march 2014. They were fine upon arrival. I have no rocks or anything rough in the terrarium they could be scratching their shell on so it's really a mystery to me as to how this happened.

Good point about the dosage. Maybe I should just keep it low, or even put the vit d into a spray bottle each time for misting them.

[muddydragon]

Coir can actually be quite acidic. I mix limestone flour in with the substrate to raise the pH. The wetness of the substrate can also cause this, how wet is it? you want it so that if you squeeze a ball of it together it holds it's shape (mostly) and virtually no water comes out. if it's wetter than this then this is almost certainly the main problem

As starcrazy alreay said, never dose the food with supplements as they have no option but to eat it then and too much can be harmful (but you can offer food which includes supplements alongside otehr foods), it's even unwise to put calcium on the food, it's best just to offer it to them then if they feel they do not need it they will not take it. I have been known to add vitmin D powder to the limestone blocks i make up (but they always have an option of another calcium source) when i've been worried about vit D, this works quite nicely.

As others have said with the UV be careful the tank temperature doesn't shoot up, you can get little stick on aquarium thermometers to keep an eye on things.

it will not grow back but looking like that is not a problem for them. Old snails get this to some extent even with the greatest of care.

[Liguus]

I didn't consider that the coir could be a problem. It isn't soaking wet, and if I squeezed a ball of it there wouldn't really be much water pouring out. But I think I will add calcium powder or limestone (if I can find it) into the soil.

[Liguus]

So I do see the danger with incorrect vitamin dosage. Would it be fine if I made a mix with the vitamins though? I mean add some reasonable but small dose of vit d to a mix of dog food + fish food+ oats+ dried fruit, grind it all up and add water until it becomes cake batter consistency. Then pour it in a tray and dry it out and cut it into cubes. I was thinking of offering that with the standard food.

[muddydragon]

you want the coir so virtually no water comes out you don't really want much more than a few drops.


yes, just don't offer it too often they can get a bit carried away on such things when they first are introduced especially. too much protein constantly can also cause the shell to crack (they grow too quickly) once a week is best. people make their own snail mixes with similar things. You can feed it when wet actually, they're more than happy with it like that , just dont ever feed such foods when theyre so dry they could expand (like dog food prior to adding water) as it can expand after eating and at worsst kill them.

[Cashell]

Those brown shells peeling off in the first reminds me strongly of my "ancient" Neohelix albolabris. Not to sound like a "bad guy", but I don't really do anything* "special" about it and have learned to just let them age and be merry.

* If you're certain the peeling isn't related to an acidic environment that is, though these posters above seem to believe so and have each offered good advice.

[Liguus]

Where do you guys get the limestone to put in the substrate? I realize some of you might be in the UK, but just figured I'd ask if its something I can find in a store or have to buy online.

Also, If I were to grind up a cuttlebone and mix that into the soil would it have just as good of a neutralizing effect?

[Liguus]

I also thought that maybe I'll just get some more calcium powder from the petstore to mix into the substrate. Probably a bit more expensive, but still only a couple dollars.

[muddydragon]

I don't know if everyone (or anyone else for that matter) adds limestone flour to the substrate, it's just something i've been experimenting with lately after reading the coir can be (relatively!) acidic and i figured it would be worth a shot (also it would happen by accident when the limestone blocks got to covered in coir).

I am in the UK however i would suspect you would be able to get it from a similar place namely a store which sells equestrian things (either phsyically or online) as people use it for their horses. I use NAF limestone flour but any brand will do if they don't have anything added. you can usually find people selling small packets of it on ebay or amazon (but this may be different in the US).

I think the calcium powder is very likely to be limestone flour, i'm not convinced cuttle would work as it's not very soluable, to be honest the idea behind adding limestone flour to the substrate was simply that it might be like limestone rich natural areas but i haven't tested the pH for all i know it has no effect in that form, but snails do soemtimes eat the substrate so i figured it would help that way at least.

[malacophile]

Nov 2, 2014 13:04:07 GMT Zorst said:

Another thing is lack of calcium can mean that Vit D isn't absorbed properly.

It's actually the other way around. Vitamin D is necessary for proper absorption and utilization of calcium.

[Zorst]

lol!that's what I meant to put n got it twisted around. I should read my posts properly before hitting the post tab lol

Thanks malacophilie

Zorst