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Post by morningcoffee on Sept 18, 2020 10:53:40 GMT
My snail has black stuff in his mouth? He's not being active at all. I dont want him to die. I have pictures but dont see where I can attach them?? Upload the pictures to a free image sharing site like Imgur or ImgBB and then post the links here. |
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daniele
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 245
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Post by daniele on Sept 18, 2020 13:25:02 GMT
After posting a pic you'll be able to get a more accurate reply!
Meanwhile pls note, that the radula (snail's "tongue") is black or anyway very dark, usually! So to have a black stuff inside the mouth, is definitely normal...
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Post by wolf on Sept 18, 2020 16:13:08 GMT
Hi daniele, sorry, but I'm a little bit confused now. I've isolated and preparated dozens of radulae of many species for microscopy and none of them was black (not even dark) but whitish/transparent. The so called mandible ("jaw") can be darker in many species, in most cases yellow to a darker brown. Have a nice time, kind regards: wolf
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daniele
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 245
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Post by daniele on Sept 19, 2020 12:51:19 GMT
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Post by wolf on Sept 19, 2020 15:03:21 GMT
Hi daniele, thanks for your mail . Nice and interesting talk........  .
At first some comments concerning the mandible ("jaw"). For example: the jaw of a Lissachatina fulica f. rodatzi has a natural colour of brown-yellow. Pictures of the jaws found in the www are often stained to enhance the contrast to get better pictures. In SEM-pictures (scanning electron microskopy) you can't judge the original colour at all (the material is steamed with a thin layer of gold) and the jaw appears in simple black-and white.
And, true enough, the mandible often has a slightly curved form, just like a "(".
In most cases the radula is whittisch/translucent, but the radula is often stained (once again to enhance the contrast). My favorite staining-method is borax carmine. If you take a picture of a stained radula and photograph it in dark-and-white, you can get pretty pictures (and the radula seems to be rather dark, but that is not the natural situation). But there are some exceptions, of course. For example, the "limpet" snails feed on algae, rasping them from rocks with their radula. So some very hard substance is imbedded into the radula, the dark-colored "goethite" (a special form of iron-oxide). So in these cases the radula is not whittisch but more or less brown.
Whole lot of fun, regards: wolf Edit: thanks, morningcoffee!
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daniele
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 245
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Post by daniele on Sept 20, 2020 11:52:51 GMT
Hi daniele, thanks for your mail . Nice and interesting talk........ .
At first some comments concerning the mandible ("jaw"). For example: the jaw of a Lissachatina fulica f. rodatzi has a natural colour of brown-yellow. Pictures of the jaws found in the www are often stained to enhance the contrast to get better pictures. In SEM-pictures (scanning electron microskopy) you can't judge the original colour at all (the material is steamed with a thin layer of gold) and the jaw appears in simple black-and white.
And, true enough, the mandible often has a slightly curved form, just like a "(".
In most cases the radula is whittisch/translucent, but the radula is often stained (once again to enhance the contrast). My favorite staining-method is Boraxcarmine. If you take a picture of a stained radula and photograph it in dark-and-white, you can get pretty pictures (and the radula seems to be rather dark, but that is not the natural situation). But there are some exceptions, of course. For example, the "limpet" snails feed on algae, rasping them from rocks with their radula. So some very hard substance is imbedded into the radula, the dark-colored "goethite" (a special form of iron-oxide). So in these cases the radula is not whittisch but more or less brown.
Whole lot of fun, regards: wolf Edit: thanks, morningcoffee!
Wow that's very interesting! So the "(" shaped stuff that I can see inside their mouth and I always believed was the radula, is actually the mandible! And if the mandible has this kind of particulare shape, at this point there are no doubts that what I observed was actually that! (since the shape and the color are the only features I observed!) So at this point the pic that I could take would be useless, but if I will be able to take a good clear one, I will still post it so that any user who will read in the future can understand better what we are talking abt! I have another doubt at this point abt a stuff I read in the past, that maybe you can clear: so, first of all is the mandible the muscle which is used to move the radula? Is it true that a big part of hemocyanin production is concentrated there (on the muscles below radula)? And this lead me to another big doubt I am alwyas struggling with... So do Cornu aspersum only have hemocyanin, or they also have haemoglobin in some other organs? All my qustions are specifically related to Cornu aspersum that is the only specie I raise.. I am asking abt this last doubt, because for what I was able to read up to now, they should only have hemocyanin, but then when this summer one of my dearest guys had a big problem in laying eggs, and amputated herself an internal organ (then died after 3 months in which I really tried everything to save her); when I took the organ to the vet, he told me that when I see red blood I shoud be worried, so when I asked him how possible they also have red blood, he just told yes they have some... Honestly he did not seem so much into this blood color matter, so maybe you can clarify this doubt too! thank you so much! daniele |
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Post by wolf on Sept 20, 2020 15:55:29 GMT
Hi, dear daniele,
yes, following your description the "shaped stuff" you've seen is obviously the jaw (the "mandible"). Some authors call it "maxilla", just like in human anatomy ("upper jaw"). So we have a contradiction in terminology, unfortunately.
The digestive tract of snails begins with the lips and the "buccal cavity". A large amount of the buccal cavity is filled with the "buccal mass", consisting of the "odontophore" and some muscles which can move the odontophore. They are located "ventral" in the buccal cavity. The odontophore is a cartilage underlying the radula. So there is a complicated system of muscles moving the odontophore and the radula itself.
The mandible (maxilla) is not a muscle, but consists of chitin with some proteins and mineral salts. It cannot move by itself. It lays "dorsal" in the buccal cavity.
As far as I know, hemocanin is produced by the so called "rhogocytes", found in any connective tissue of a snail and the hemocoel. Might be these cells are concentrated in the muscles below the radula, sorry, I don't know.......... ..
All I know is that Cornu aspersum has hemocyanin, not hemoglobin. Rhogocytes can produce hemocyanin and hemoglobin, but they do it "either-or" in different species. The only family in which the rhogocytes produce hemoglobin is the freshwater family Planorbidae (perhaps in the family Bulinidae, too). Can't really imagine the production of hemoglobin in Stylommatophora (Cornu aspersum f.e.)......... .
Please apologize my poor English, I'm not a native speaker  .
Have a nice afternoon, best of luck and fun: wolf
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Post by morningcoffee on Sept 20, 2020 17:23:04 GMT
Excellent knowledge and information from wolf, as ever! 👍 |
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Post by wolf on Sept 20, 2020 17:54:56 GMT
Hi morningcoffee, thank you so much! Very kind...... . Nevertheless I am a beginner.......... . Kind regards: wolf
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daniele
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 245
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Post by daniele on Sept 21, 2020 11:01:22 GMT
Thank you so much for the detailed informations, and I think everything is very clear now! Yes, the part I observed is without a doubt the jaw then, and abt the hemocyanin you comfirmed what I used to know too... Next time I will meet the vet, I will try to make a bit more clear what he was speaking abt that time some months ago! In fact since every time I had so many questions concerning so many topics abt the health of that poor guy, is possible that there have been some misunderstanding (I hope, otherwise it mean that the vet has some random knowledge and I should probably find a new one again and unfortunately those able and willing to treat Cornu aspersum are not so many). Thanks again for the precious details!! |
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Post by wolf on Sept 21, 2020 12:22:34 GMT
Hi Daniele, don't be too hard......... . Snails only play a tiny role in veterinary studies. They talk about snails for between 10 and 12 minutes  . They focus on vertebrates, of course. Some people in human medicine know a little bit more, because many snails are intermediate hosts for parasites. Some of them can be dangerous to humans. Have a nice time: wolf
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daniele
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 245
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Post by daniele on Sept 22, 2020 9:36:21 GMT
Yes indeed, and finding a vet was particularly difficult, even amongst exotic vets... In the end the guy I relied on for the big problem I had, is a guy who takes care of some snail's farm (but, like you said for human doctors, they also focus mostly on the parasite or diseases they can pass to humans and not on the single snail itself) and I was happy with him as he was the only one who tried at least, where others just disappeared after the first visit.
He also said that was the first and only time that he had a single Cornu aspersum as a patient, and I guess the diagnosis and treatment options are much less even compared to what you could try with a GALS...that's also why I regret so much to have discovered this passion so old already!!
PS: it was just to "wreak out" (not sure if the word is correct and understandable) the stress of these long months, i know vet's job consist in other things mostly!
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. They focus on vertebrates, of course. Some people in human medicine know a little bit more, because many snails are intermediate hosts for parasites. Some of them can be dangerous to humans.