Would this anger you too?

[deadmansfinger]

one comment I will add to this is you shouldn't be thinking about whether you could get a muntjac to live happily indoors but more if you should?

After talking to you I am in no doubt you have done your homework but I think you need to consider if keeping a little deer inside is fair. Even though others have done it doesn't make it right, it just seems so unnatural an environment to me.

But I also feel Moracai has some good points. Who says that in 20 years time it won't be commonplace and everyone will have little deers running about their houses, it's gotta start somewhere.

But I do feel that it might give you more hassle than it's worth with regards to the SSPCA etc

Where you are planning to live their is a country park about 5 mins from the city centre than has lots of little deers running about together in large outdoor (natural?) enclosures. You could at least go and see them there rather than having one that is essentially confined to a house.

Brian.

[gastropodgirl]

Despite you giving various reasons I'm still thinking it's a rubbish idea.You saying you've loved them for however long,well I love Tapir's but I wouldn't get one as a pet because it is wrong and selfish and I wouldn't be able to give it the care it needed.

[KathyM]

Right I'm back.

I've read your post, and the posts on the other baord and I can see you've done your homework, and I commend that.

BUT, and it's a huge but (*snigger*), I can't help but still feel this is entirely selfish (I'm not meaning that as a judgement of your personality, but of this decision).

You say you know it's not natural for a deer to be taken from it's mum before 6 months, but you *can* if you do X. Well, to me that's not putting the deer first.

You say you *can* litter train a deer. But unlike training cats, it's not a natural behaviour for a deer, no matter how domesticated it could potentially be.

Now I know you're going to say that we domesticated dogs and cats, but given the amount of pets we have domesticated (and arguably ruined in some cases), is it ethically *right* to add yet another of nature's wild creatures to this list?

I know you're going to also say that I have with snails. That's a fair point. BUT, we've added snails to that list knowing we can potentially replicate a fairly "natural" environment for them, which you can't say about a muntjac deer living potentially in a city centre flat/house.

Then you might give, as you have already, parrots, hedgehogs and other "exotic" pets as an example. I'm split on this. I believe, personally, that if a natural habitat and specific care can be met, then it *might* be okay. I'm still not sure on that, and feel differently about different animals. For example, I think it's possible with hedgehogs, small reptiles, and similar pets, but I'm not enirely 100% about large exotic birds, or larger reptiles.

Arguably though, your greatest problem is going to be replicating a natural habitat and life of a muntjac deer. You just don't have the facilities or capabilities of doing it "naturally". On one of the links I gave, it said deer kept in enclosures (which is the closest I could find to living indoors, as it's obviously not common enough for them to have commented on), they need to be able to see their natural habitat and fellow deer to thrive mentally.

On another link, it said that a muntjac needs to graze every three hours regularly - that's just not possible in your case, and although you say that you could train it to eat when it's convenient to you, again that's not "natural", and is selfish.

Now, whether or not you see providing a recently and only partially domesticated animal with as close to natural habitat as possible as a priority is up to you. To me, with a species that is not used to living in a home for the past however many generations, it would be imperative to me, and therefore to me, morally wrong to keep such an animal enclosed un-naturally.

It's impossible to compare the keeping of a muntjac deer in a home and the keeping of a dog or cat. Cats and dogs have been domesticated for thousands of years and rely on us (unless feral) for care, food and companionship. A muntjac deer does not, and given the already huge amount of species we have fundamentally forced to be our pets, is it right to say "I want it, I'll have it" with one? Is it right to say "I think they're cute and I've always wanted one, so I'm going to get one?"

Have you factored into account that (from the sites I've read so far) it seems that Muntjac deer kept in homes as pets seem to have a far shorter life expectancy than a wild one? Can you say you know exactly what makes one "happy"?

Who speaks up for the deer in this situation? I know you *feel* that you want what's best for one (and I believe you believe that), but with no judgement intended at all, is that true if you delve deeper? Can you hand on heart say that it's better for the muntjac to live in a city centre as your pet than to stay with it's mother and have a natural life? I suspect you'll say yes, and maybe say that it won't have the risks of a wild life, but who are we to play God, and would that be the real reason for you taking one? I think you know the answer, but I also think you'll read this and make whatever decision you want. All I can do is ask you these questios and hope you'll answer them honestly - if not to us, to yourself.

[KathyM]

moracai said:

When you think about it, every single pet was a wild animal at one point. What do you suppose the reaction was to the first person that brought a cat or a dog into the home? people probably were shocked and thought the person was mad.
Some people still look at me like I am mad for having snails in the home, others think it's wonderful. Each person has a different perception on the subject. I thought my niece was mad for having a skunk in the house, yet I had a raccoon as a pet as a child. My nephew keeps a pot bellied pig, my mother thought he was crazy, I thought it was cute and acted just like a dog would.
I don't know if keeping a deer as a pet is right or wrong, I don't know enough about the subject to offer an opinion on that one, and not sure that i have the right to do so anyway. But is it really so different than any other "exotic"?

This is an interesting point that's been raised in the past on other boards I go on about the ethics of keeping non-domesticated exotics.

The problem is, from what we know of cats and dogs and their domestication, it came about to a high perentage out of choice and living requirements from the animals themselves. Food sources, scavenging, etc, brought them closer to humans, and began to make them reliant on us for their needs.

I don't think this could really be argued for many of today's exotic pets, although there are some exceptions.

Strangely those exceptions tend to be the species that people are more uncomfortable with the idea of keeping - eg. monkeys. I'm in no way advocating the keeping of monkeys as pets by saying that, I'm completely against it.

[LisaLQ]

Morocai - you said "I thought it was cute and acted just like a dog would". That summed up the whole reason why I think this, and certain other "exotics" should not be kept as pets. Because those who want to keep them want to keep them for their own pleasure, and because they're cute, and will act like a dog.

CC - I really feel for you because I think you honestly believe you had this all planned out. But even your lengthy post purely confirmed what I was saying - that your research and choice is based on selfish concerns - whether or not they'll live in a house, whether or not they're litter trainable, etc. You should have been researching what they need - not how you can alter them to live in your home. If you loved these animals in a non-selfish way, you would never consider keeping one as a pet. Because you'd know deep inside that it was wrong.

If you want a cute exotic, pick something smaller and easier to replicate the natural environment of.

And for the record, I dont agree with keeping birds or raccoons either, amongst other things. At least with dogs and cats they've been domesticated for years, with smaller exotics we can give them what they need, but with birds we cant let them fly freely (I mean not in an aviary or round the living room), and raccoons we have to descent and declaw to make into semi-domestic pets.

Like Kathy said - why say "Well if people can have xxxx why cant I have a deer?" and submit another animal to a lifetime of forced domestication against their needs. Why not put your time love and energy into adopting an already domesticated pet - a dog, a cat, a chinchilla - something that needs a home, not something you want to force into one.

[Moracai]

Not being argumentive or anything, but racoons don't need to be de-scented (they don't have a smell) or de-clawed.

[KathyM]

No, but they do, like other wild animals, come with a huuuuge responsibility, meaning no holidays, no trips, little veterinary help, liability insurance, a wrecked house, little or no visitors, etc, etc, etc.

[LisaLQ]

moracai said:

Not being argumentive or anything, but racoons don't need to be de-scented (they don't have a smell) or de-clawed.

They might not have to be, but they generally are.

Nope, actually that's me f-ing up. I'm thinking of skunks. Dont know why I even typed raccoon!

[Moracai]

LOL, thats ok, i figured you might have been thinking of skunks. Even with de-scenting skunks still smell awful.

[Moracai]

kathym said:

No, but they do, like other wild animals, come with a huuuuge responsibility, meaning no holidays, no trips, little veterinary help, liability insurance, a wrecked house, little or no visitors, etc, etc, etc.

But can't most, if not all of those apply to exotic pets of all types?
Snails, lizards, horses, stick insects, hampsters etc.
I have not yet met a vet who will deal with snails, does that mean we shouldn't keep them as pets? After all, until recently, alot of the snails owned on this forum were in the wild.
maybe I am not getting it, but I don't really see the difference.
yes, it can sometimes be easier to replicate the natural enviroment of a smaller animal compared with a larger one, but is that what makes it ok to keep these wild animals as pets? Surely if it's wrong to keep a large wild animal as a pet, it makes it wrong to keep a small one as a pet also?
I am not trying to make people angry, or start an argument here, but I am trying to understand the difference of what makes it ok, or not ok.

[LisaLQ]

Ok - a small animal you can make a replica of their environment as a home. A large one such as a deer, that would be impossible on anything smaller than a farm.

Personally, I think it depends on the animal and also their intelligence and how aware they are of their environment. We see keeping apes as pets as wrong, but a snail in a nice suitable tank is much easier to keep happy. Am I making sense?

There's a lot of difference between a snail and a deer. We've all seen the lovely set ups we can make for our snails, and they lay eggs and breed and are happy. A deer in a house, living around every day human things (carpets, TVs, glass doors, etc) isn't keeping an animal in an environment it will be happy in. Just like we hate dancing bears, and keeping apes dressed as children scooting around on roller skates.

[copigeon]

The difference (as I see it) is design.

Look at a deers design, its a grazing/field animal. It has spindly legs with little hooves and a fairly fragile shape.
If you spook a cat it runs up the curtains, spook a dog and it dashes under the sofa... spook a dear and it probably sprints into the nearest wall, and with those little legs that could be quite damaging?

Little spindly hoofed creature just wasnt designed with home furnishings in mind?

Just cant see the practicality of it myself.

I have no qualms with keeping just about anything as a pet, as long as you have the money and time. But... some things just, dont fit together. You dont keep a budgie in an aquarium? Why? Because a budgie would be rubbish in an aquarium.
You dont keep a fish in a cardboard box? Why? Because a fish would be rubbish in a cardboard box.

No problem with a deer as a pet, just treat it like a deer not a child/baby?

[Moracai]

Yes, and that all makes sense. It isn't practical to keep a deer in a flat, even a small one, but perhaps if you had the land, meaning keep it outside, then maybe that would be different. I don't know about that one, never having looked into the care of one. But I am not just thinking deer now.
What about taking any animal from it's natural enviroment, such as birds, lizards or whatever, how does it make it ok just because it's smaller? that's what is confusing me.

[LisaLQ]

Erm, I cant do an example for birds as I dont agree with keeping them. But for example - snails. We all have them. Can we give snails as close as damnit to their natural environment? With a bit of research and trial and error - yes. Can we give a deer a whopping great forest and herd in our living room? No.

Cant get much simpler than that *lol* I give up!

[KathyM]

moracai said:

What about taking any animal from it's natural enviroment, such as birds, lizards or whatever, how does it make it ok just because it's smaller? that's what is confusing me.

I have got to be honest, I try not to support that too. However, I just can't compare snails to other creatures with "proper" feelings, such as birds, mammals, etc. Saying that, I also won't order them from the wild. It's different to me to a small degree if they're already here (eg. the Brixtons), but for example, I don't order off Eric's imports (no offence to anyone who does, or to Eric).

I also can't call hamsters "exotics", they've been captive bred for eons, and I wouldn't have one in this house if you paid me *lol*.

[Crab]

I have been lurking for awhile, and had to throw in my 2 cents

I am not sure if everyone here is aware, or cares, that a muntjac is about the size of a large housecat, and is MUCH smaller then almost every other deer species. They are also generally pretty solitary (meaning no need for other deer companionship), but like other solitary animals at times make small herds, family units ect. So while not ideal, a muntjac can be indoors. I speculate whether or not they can be littertrained, but even if they can and it isnt "natural" they still do it by choice. You cannot force a deer to use a litter box against will.
Deer, in all sizes, make EXCELLENT captive animals. They are very friendly and outgoing if bottleraised. of course you cant be in a bucks pen during rut. It is minimally stressfull to seperate young animals from their mothers for bottleraising if done at the correct time in life, they are generally taken soon after getting the first colostrum and finished on the bottle by a human. They do not have a chance to bond with a deer mom, so they dont really stress much, just happy they are getting milk.
The idea that for an animal to be happy, you must exactly duplicate the natural environment, well, thats rubbish. The fawn cant miss what it never knew. If raised in a home, a home will be what is comforting to it. If it would have the choice to come and go to the yard, I see little issue. Of course they need to be accomodated. Exotic pets are a lifestyle, you dont change them, they change you. Obviously a hardwood floor or tile, not good for a deer. Drapes and cords need covered or removed. CC sounds like she is willing to make the needed changes in her life. Most true pet lovers are. The grazing is a simple matter of having hay available at all times indoor (hey, just like a houserabbit!).

A deer is VERY similar in mentality and instincts as a rabbit. They behave very similiarly when raised in a domestic manner. No one would think of digging a warren in the house for a houserabbit, or put down sod in the bedroom for a rabbit. There is no reason to for a muntjac either. I have actually experienced these animals, and this is my observation ( I work at an exotic veterianary office).
In the states there are TONS of vets willing and able to see exotics, you just have to call around. Of course that is considering they are legal in the area.
~Crab

[Crab]

I wanted to add the comment, not being "ideal" meaning more that the owner will have to change their way of living if they really want to make it work. ( Actually now that I think about it, the slick floors arent even too much of a problem, the bottoms of the hooves are actually fleshy and paw pad like).
Somewhat like a siberian husky is not ideal living in sunny Florida, but by golly the SPCA wouldnt take away the dog because "ideally" it should live in a snowy climate.
Someone may say, if you can ask the deer what they want. well, I suspect the deer has no concept that other deer live "wild", or even that there is any other way to live, and even that they could be happier doing other things. They are simple animals that are happy with what they are used to, eating good food, and keeping company when they choose, and mating if intact.
It seems most people on this forum have never met a captive deer. White tails are actually one of the easiest to tame, and are bred in the thousands, perhaps millions on meat and antler farms. They are practically domesticated.
~Crab

[vickyboz]

ok my turn
you really have done your homework over haveing a deer. but it needs to be treated like a deer. my chinchillas are cute and cuddley and can also be litter trained but i'd never let them have the run off the house as i'd have no wires left. if you go through with this as i'm sure you will. you need to remember that this animail needs to be outside. as already said if you scare a domestic animail it runs to hide and the little deer will do the same. waht about firework night and new years eve when the whole of the uk seem to think its fun letting off fireworks how will it cope.
my other concern which is nothing to do with you but with the breaders is takeing away any animal causes distress to both the mother and baby. also have you checked the history with breaders to make sure their is no inbreading with the heard.

anyway good luck. i wouldn't do it but you seem determined

[KathyM]

Crab - your posts are obviously well educated on the subject, but one question that runs through my mind every time I read the "for" argument, is WHY?

Why would anyone want to keep a deer in a flat or a house? Why would anyone prefer an animal like that in an un-natural setting? So far the only answer has been "Because I can because they're cute, because I WANT TO".

You say we don't change exotics, they change us. I'm sorry but when it comes to this scenario that doesn't wash. It's purely selfish to keep a deer in a house, irregardless of size or temperament. Whether you agree with it or not, noone can say you're not changing the exotic to suit you in this scenario. Taking it away from it's mother too early, bottle rearing, litter training, expecting it not to turn your lawn into a "patty" (taken from other board where the OP decides it's better to not allow natural behaviour in case it ruins her lawn), expecting it not to feed naturally, expecting it to fit into a completely alien surrounding.

With other exotics you can set up a viv or an aviary or a tank to replicate as close to possible it's natural surroundings. That is just NOT possible with a bloomin' deer. It goes beyond ridiculous and to me borders on animal cruelty.

[LisaLQ]

Horses, goats, sheep, cows - all "practically domesticated". None suitable for keeping indoors. Just like deer.

CCs post although kind of educated on deer themselves still revolve around the "aww I want it it's cute it'll be easily changed to suit my needs" theory. It all still sounds very selfish and uncaring, for the deer.

I could keep a dog in a cage all it's life, and say "it's never missed anything as it's never known better". Wouldn't make it right. I could keep a rat in a glass tank on sawdust all it's life, condemning it to myco and an early death - and say "well, it never missed anything because it didn't know better". Still an unsuitable environment. I could keep a fish in a jam jar, and say it didn't miss the rivers because it didn't ever go there. Doesn't mean it wouldn't need a decent sized tank with as close to a replicated natural environment as possible.

I wonder what nationality CC is - are you from the US/Canada? It seems our overseas friends have less qualms about condemning animals to poor conditions for the rest of their lives purely for their own satisfaction

[Moracai]

lisalq said:

I wonder what nationality CC is - are you from the US/Canada? It seems our overseas friends have less qualms about condemning animals to poor conditions for the rest of their lives purely for their own satisfaction

I was raised overseas in Canada, and that remark hurt.
I have NEVER been cruel to an animal, and never will.

[KathyM]

While I don't believe that we should make judgements on anyone due to their nationality, it is fair to say that petkeeping in the States is far different to over here in many ways. Some of those ways are good and are far ahead of ours - veterinary treatment being a good example. However, there are other trends more prevalent over there that aren't desirable, some of which are creeping over this way, some are already here just not as widely accepted.

I think that's more down to the sheer number of people over there compared to here - we do have the odd person into dogfighting here, which is commonplace in the States and growing here thanks to that.

It's a sad fact that whatever the US get into, we follow in - I don't think it's as much about following in the footsteps (although I do believe hat's a part of it, given gang culture in the States flowing to here and the "cool" things that go with it, such as dogfighting), but that things tend to pick up pace in larger countries and overflow to here (and vice versa).

Yes there's more cruelty in the States, but then there's more poverty, and there are more people. Our record here isn't that cracking either. I would hope though that some of the States' silly trends don't kick off here, but I think that's unrealistic. See what gang culture brought with it, with the glorification of idiots over in the States, because of course most people think that whatever's cool there should be here.

Edited to add: It is true that some things us British folks would frown upon pet keeping wise is seen as acceptable over there - ear cropping, tail docking, debarking, declawing. With the exeption of tail docking, none of that is done over here (thank God), but that's another good example, and I think the keeping of silly pets in unsuitable circumstances is another thing far more accepted over there (and best kept there).

[Moracai]

I find some pets here "silly" too.
I for one would never dream of keeping a chipmunk as a pet, but have seen them many times in pet shops here.
it's not fair to say that north americans keep silly pets and no other country would.

[KathyM]

Erm...I didn't say that though. Please don't put words in my mouth that weren't there.

[Moracai]

kathym said:

and I think the keeping of silly pets in unsuitable circumstances is another thing far more accepted over there (and best kept there).

best kept there, to me, implies that we started it.

if I am mistaken in what you meant then I appologise.