LisaLQ
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Post by LisaLQ on Dec 3, 2006 15:08:38 GMT
Jeez Louise - is there any point getting even more worked up over this? I should have said "most" and not implied all. But you've got to agree, animal welfare over in the US is a completely different ball game to over here. You can keep just about anything other than a pit bull in the states, and that ban is the stupid one! They should be banning keeping herding animals as lap pets, pigs as children, monkeys on rollerskates, dyed fish/dogs/cats, "teacup" pets, docking/declawing/debarking/removing teeth etc etc etc. On a whole, sadly, it seems as if it is more acceptable to those over there to treat animals how they want to treat them, rather than how they should be treated. It's a sad fact that their animal welfare has a long long way to go. Any country that can allow it's people to remove a dog's voice box so that they dont have to listen to it bark, or remove claws so they can save their sofas, is way back in my estimations.
And thank god for the SSPCA having their heads screwed on in this case.
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KathyM
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Post by KathyM on Dec 3, 2006 15:21:26 GMT
and I think the keeping of silly pets in unsuitable circumstances is another thing far more accepted over there (and best kept there). best kept there, to me, implies that we started it. if I am mistaken in what you meant then I appologise. You're not mistake with this post - there are plenty of current American trends in animal keeping I would much rather stayed over there along with the people who exact them (wherever they "started", they're certainly accepted there and not here), you were mistaken in saying: ...because I didn't say anything of the sort. Edited to add: Lisa, know it's not relevant to this thread really, but "pit bulls" aren't banned in the states, neither are the pedigree APBT. Both are over here (which is daft considering a "pit bull" is a crossbreed type of dog not a breed, and covers every single staffy/bull breed type cross).
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LisaLQ
Archachatina papyracea
Old friend (emphasis on the "old")
Posts: 2,995
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Post by LisaLQ on Dec 3, 2006 15:30:35 GMT
They are in some states Family kept happy friendly pit bulls put to sleep all the time purely because of their genetic make up. It's very sad. And they're not banned over here, you just have to neuter them - breeding them is banned. You have to keep them muzzled in public too.
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Moracai
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Post by Moracai on Dec 3, 2006 15:31:02 GMT
very true, and there are pets kept here that are just as daft and hope it stays in this country and doesn't spread "over there"
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Dec 3, 2006 15:37:37 GMT
They are in some states Family kept happy friendly pit bulls put to sleep all the time purely because of their genetic make up. It's very sad. And they're not banned over here, you just have to neuter them - breeding them is banned. You have to keep them muzzled in public too. They are actually banned here, along with some other breeds. The ban allowed for the "original" pit bulls left in the country to be kept alive, as long as they were registered, neutered and muzzled in public. Because of that, there should be no pit bulls left legally in this country, due to the time that's passed since the ban became effective. Moracai - I have never said otherwise, it pains me greatly to see trend patterns following the US and other countries in the UK too. Of course there are silly people keeping silly pets here (to a much lesser degree than the US of course), noone said otherwise.
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Moracai
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Post by Moracai on Dec 3, 2006 15:40:21 GMT
Yor right about the pitbulls being banned under the dangerous dog act. sadly, they were specifically bred to fight, making them very aggressive. it's a horrendous "sport" that needs to be wiped out.
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Dec 3, 2006 15:43:34 GMT
I'd best shut me gob now, because I'll likely get very heated over which breeds are "very aggressive". Pit bulls aren't one of them *lmao*.
Edited to add: My very strong feelings against the DDA and everything it stands for is prolly best left for another time on another thread.
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LisaLQ
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Old friend (emphasis on the "old")
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Post by LisaLQ on Dec 3, 2006 15:49:56 GMT
Hmm it's a sad fact it's the people not the dogs that need putting to sleep. You cant breed aggression into dogs. You beat it into them.
Edited at Kathy's request as it's not something we should be getting into on this thread.
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Post by Crab on Dec 4, 2006 1:44:54 GMT
OK to get the posts back on track.....
Muntjac deer, and rabbits are very similiar in personality and needs. Why is it ok to have a houserabbit, and not a house muntjac? Maybe its because people arent used to it. I think a very real consideration is to deer proof the house, make sure draperies are short, cords are in conduit ect. The "why" is another issue. "why" do people have snails? because you enjoy them. All of animal keeping is selfish, we have dogs for our own enjoyment, we certainly wouldnt have them otherwise. We rescue a dog instead of buying one, because it makes us feel good for doing so. I think its much better if someone has the right pet that truly fits them, even if its a bit unorthodox so long as its researched and provided for. Many pets in shelters are due to them being the wrong pet for them (well, and people being just plain lazy or short attention span).
It is not completely un natural for a muntjac to live in a house if you look at how they live in the wild. After all they are forest floor animals, that take comfort in dark and confined spaces. They have evolved to deal with all the obstical a rainforest floor has to offer. To them a coffee table is like a fallen tree to walk under, a couch is like a rotten log, soft and fun to jump on. Keeping one in a open yard is more unnatural for them. If the deer has "free choice" to come and go from house to yard, why is that any worse then an enclosure with a shelter? Seems the house would win over a barn anyday. The deer would be getting WAY more interaction and stimulation that way. It seems obvious that if the deer doesnt like it in the house, then it will spend its time outdoors. Knowing how bottle raised deer act, I think that the deer would probably spend alot of its time inside with family. The statement that they need to be treated like a deer, is true. All animals should be treated as what they are. Its better for owner and animal, and that goes for domestic animals too. I dont think allowing the deer indoors really gose against that though. I didnt see any OP about concerns over a ruined yard? Thats not a nessasary concern. They are not grazers, but browsers. they really do not enjoy eating grass. They prefer leafy plants. Flowers and tulips and the sort would be eaten up in short term. Grass would be pretty untouched unless there was not commercial food source offered. Deer food is readily available, and has come a long way. In fact hunters feed this to wild deer to improve antler growth in the hunting areas. The scat is small and makes great fertilizer. Its easily washed into the lawn with a hose. They would have less of an impact then a pygmy goat, since feeding habits and stool are similiar, just muntjacs are smaller.
The stress of pulling a fawn for bottlefeeding is being blown out of proportion. Deer leave their fawns to hide in the forest floor. They only return to them a few times a day to nurse. If you take the fawn away early enough, the doe generally looks for the fawn once, and then goes about her business. Fawn mortality in the wild is very high, they expect the fawn to be eaten by predators many times and they go on. the fawns dont know the difference, they get a bottle and they grow up being a very well adjusted and much calmer animal. Bottle raised fawns do not have the flighty panicky nature of wild deer. Zoos generally always bottleraise all the babies of most species as it makes life in cativity much more pleasant and stress free.
In the end, you either think its bad or not, no matter what way you try and show it. And thats your right. It is good to try and see both sides though before you descide. Heck, dogs have only really been embraced as indoor pets in the last 50 years or so. Alot of our great grandparents would never have thought to let the dog or cat in the house, to them any animals place is outdoors.
I hope to have a couple of muntjac in the future. I wouldnt have them in the house, but I am planning to build a much bigger lushly planted aviary for my mandarin ducks. I think they would make a great addition to the aviary. They are wonderful to watch and interact with. They do sleep ALOT though. It will be interesting finding plants that they wont want to eat though ;D
And just for the record pitbulls can be LOVELY dogs. I used to work in a vets office in what you could call the wrong side of town. These pitsbulls were almost all pretty aggressive. Once I moved to a more well to do area, all the pitbulls were teddybear sweet although all pretty hyper. Interesting, I think it is nurture, not nature.
~Crab
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Post by copigeon on Dec 4, 2006 7:36:47 GMT
Comes down to money/time/space for me still.
Crab you obviously have more experience with this animal than anyone else here. And thats great, and I agree with most of what you say (although I still cant imagine something hooved interracting well with soft furnishings).
I dont feel its fair, to heavily socialise an animal, in an indoor solitary environment, if you have to work a 40h week.
I cant work a 40h work because of Bird and Floorbird. That means a) I'll never be well off, b) moving out will be a long way off. This is a commitment I make to having indoor, well socialised and dependant animals. A hand fed, bottle fed lonesome deer in a flat is not something you pick up for 4 hours a night before bed?
Hell, if I was a millionare I'd have a damn pet walrus in a fishtank. But practicality says I dont have time for a pet walrus because Im not a millonare.
A deer in an avairy = 40h week. A hand fed and reliant indoor pet = too much time for the average joe.
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Post by Crab on Dec 4, 2006 16:12:10 GMT
Well, I have never had a deer in my house so I cant say how well it would work, but as long as she has a back up (IE outdoor environment) then why not try and see, people have done it before and the deer preffer it . Deer hooves are spongy and soft on the bottom, they arent slick and hard like a shoed horse. Muntjac Deer do not need constant companionship, and definately do not need alot of money. The cost of properly maintaining a deer is rather low. A huge bail of lugume hay is $2 and would last 2 months or more, a 50# sack of deer feed is $9 and would last about the same. Vaccines can be compared to goats. Like mentioned before this species is more solitary, they do not require constant companionship. Dogs require more, and many working people have them fine. Working an 8 hour day would be just fine, any more then that and I might wonder if they would have time for themselves let alone any type of pet. Of all the aguements against it money is on the bottom of the list. The most expensive thing will be the fence around the yard. The vet care and food is not anymore then say a cat, maybe even less. A houserabbit with the deer, or two deer would actually solve any companionship problems if that is a consideration, deer and rabbits bond very strongly. I can post a link to pictures and stories about this phenominon if anyone if interested. But like I said, not everyone will agree, thats ok. What isnt practical to you, is to someone else. How many people think its practical to have a great dane or mastiff, but they do, and they thrive. Many people cant imagine a cat on the bed, since they have "dirty" feet from the litterbox, the list goes on. As long as you are commited to the animal and will be a problem solver in the process it should be fine.
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KathyM
Achatina tincta
Posts: 709
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Post by KathyM on Dec 4, 2006 16:30:44 GMT
I still hold to my feelings that it's not about whether it *can* be done, but about whether it should, and WHY. Noone's made a valid argument for that so far, much as I appreciate Crab seems to know a lot more than CC was able to put forward. And for the record, I *would* question someone having a single dog as an only pet left alone for 8 hours a day in a flat, never mind a species so far from it's natural care needs.
I think to be honest, CC's only really putting her needs as priority - she wants a deer, the deer doesn't need or want her. If the deer was given a choice, say it had that mental capacity. Would it choose a farm life for example - safe from being seen as a pest as they are in the wild, yet given the freedom and natural setting it needs to thrive? Or would it choose to be ripped from it's Mum, bottle fed a relatively unsuitable milk substitute by a strange creature, litter trained and locked in a flat for a working day? Oh and don't forget, if it choose that option, it won't be allowed access to outdoors every day because she doesn't want her garden ruining (I'm assuming CC has already bought a downstairs flat to have said that on the other board).
It all reminds me of that little girl off the old Disney cartoons "I'll love him and squeeze him and kiss him and cuddle him!"
I'm not anti-exotics, so don't think I am (or I wouldn't be here). But there has to be a line drawn for the sake of the animals. I don't see what the problem is with picking a pet that is already domesticated to some degree instead of having this very outdated "I want that, I'll have it" attitude to animal welfare and plucking yet another of Earth's creatures from it's natural habitat because it's "cute".
I do see the distinction between keeping one outside as Crab has said and the way CC wants one as an indoor pet. There is a big difference and it seems kindof pointless defending one with the other. If Crab had come here saying he/she was getting a deer for a large outdoor enclosure, I don't think he/she'd have had half the reaction CC got for saying she couldn't do that in case her garden got ruined.
As for my pets themselves, the vast majority of them are rescue. The feeling I got from rescue was purely secondary to their needs, or I wouldn't have the pets I have. If I had my choice of what was "cute", I'd have 3 siamese cats instead of the 3 demented and retarded moggies I've got, and a Boxer instead of Dharma the Bullmastiff. I didn't pick them to make me feel good - they came to me because they needed what I could give, and needed a home. That's far different from taking in a healthy deer fawn and expecting it to live around our wants and needs, and I find the comparison quite odd.
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Post by copigeon on Dec 4, 2006 17:45:41 GMT
Animals dont require constant companionship, unless theyve been reared in such a way that they depend on it? The only reason bird and floorbird require the amount of time they need is because they were runts from the nest which were partly hand fed and socialised. Thier parents live quite happily rarely seeing a soul in the avairy.
Its absurd to believe a bottlefed home socialised pet animal, solitary by nature or not, wont require more than the average person working full time can provide?
And when I say money, I mean money to afford a house with a garden and make the necisary changes to make the animal safe. Not just feeding, vets bills and the rest.
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Post by mable on Dec 6, 2006 0:01:07 GMT
has anyone ever raised a munjac? has anyone ever done research on a munjac? has anyone ever raised any type of animal other than a dog or a cat?
If the answer is No, then I cant understand how anyone can tell another person what they can or should do that pertains to getting a munjac or any other type of exotic animal.
It sounds like some here would rather see all animals in the wild. Do you know how these animals live in the wild?
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Post by gastropodgirl on Dec 6, 2006 0:26:24 GMT
Look we were asked our opinion and we gave it you people that are guests have yours.Let's not turn it into a big deal whatever CC wants to do at the end of the day is up to her whatever we say won't make much difference I don't suppose,but like I said we were asked what we thought.
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Post by deadmansfinger on Dec 6, 2006 0:42:46 GMT
I think this one has gone far enough. CC asked a question and we gave our opinions so I think this thread has served its purpose.
Brian.
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