My New Dimis-(sorry not dimis any more)

[ian]

Ive got two new dimidiata from felix they are fabulous. They only arrived today and we were concerned that they might be a bit withdrawn because of cold etc but they leapt out of the package and have been really active and eating loads all day.

They look totally different to my other dimis, i think it may be because they new ones are developing the adult patterning while my old ones have not been developing very well since i got them.

Here is a picture to compare, the old ones are on the left and the new ones on the right.


The picture doesnt do the new ones justice after a quick bath when they arrived it showed up some amazing colouring they are both really vivid pink with a few purple stripes.



That last picture is of them in their quarantine, they look perfectly healthy though and cant imagine any problems. There is even sign of significant new growth something that i have never seen on my other dimis.

[LisaLQ]

Aw Ian that's great, they're beautiful (as are your originals though!) Let us know how they get on!

[section8angel]

Lovely Mine looked like your old ones when I first got them and are starting to get the adult pattern now. They don't look like your new ones though lol

But as they say, variety is the spice of life

[LisaLQ]

Sian if yours are still quite stripey, could they be normal immaculata? I dont know myself, just an idea, probably wrong!

[felix93]

I hope they will continously making nice growing shells. I noticed them grow a tiny bit of shells since I got them. They have been very active and have been up at all hours, even during the day. My others which are older than yours have already got a perfect adult patterns (they are about 9 - 10 cm shell length). If you have any problems, let me know as my friend is very into breeding dimis, and they all seem "perfect" to me. As long as you set up the tank like what I PM you about how my friend keeps hers before, then you should have some good results (speaking from a kind of beginner. ) (Of course there is an odd case!)

[Arno]

lisalq said:

Sian if yours are still quite stripey, could they be normal immaculata? I dont know myself, just an idea, probably wrong!

I was thinking that myself too,and perhaps Ians old dimi's are immaculata as well.

[LisaLQ]

Yeah, because mine lost their "baby" stripes a while back, and it's not as if they're adult sized *laughs at the thought of Sally being a grown up!*

[section8angel]

section8angel said:

are starting to get the adult pattern now

I mean adult pattern as in the two tones - red/pink and cream/white/whatever it is.

Soo.. I don't think so?

They are losing the stripes, so if they were normal ones I would assume they wouldn't lose any or not as many as they are?
The picture of a normal immac on the species bit is really really stripey. Are all normal immacs stripey, or are there plain ones or what?

[LisaLQ]

I misread your message, and thought they were still stripey *oops*

[ian]

I was thinking something wasnt right! I am still in contact with the woman i brought my firsts ones from on ebay so maybe i can ask for a photo of the parents!! The whole immaculata/dimidiata thing is so complicated.

[Arno]

It sure is,but that doesn't take anything away from the fact that they are all beautiful snails,whether they are dimi's or not.

[ian]

Thats true im very happy with them all. I would like to know about species though-i was planning on breeding a bit when they got older and dont want to mix. Also just want to know species out of interest. Im going to have a look at the pics for the new website now and have a compare.

[section8angel]

Lol that's ok. They do still have stripes, but it's nothing like Ians ones anymore. They still have stripes on the top whorls (Edit: Which I've just seen Vals have too), but on the "main" part of the shell the stripes have merged to make just a few thick bands. I'm pretty sure I can see part of the two tone coming through as well. I'll check them tomorrow though to make sure lol.

I think I've seen the parents of them anyway and they were dimis. But again I can't remember for sure lol.

Sooo if they turn out to be normal immacs I'll owe you a bar of choccy Lisa Rofl.

Sorry Ian, kinda spammed a bit lol. They do all look lovely The new ones shells look a bit "fatter" than the old ones. Don't know if that's anything that would help with iding them.

[Paul]

ian said:

The whole immaculata/dimidiata thing is so complicated.

It was complicated but from out perspective the whole thing has been really simplified now. Basically if it is a Lissachatina and has a pink columella it is immaculata. I have tried to make sense of "types" but I'd forget that to be honest, they're largely meaningless or whimsical now because after all, they're all based on geographic distribution really so in captivity it's completely meaningless.

Take this "dimidiata" variant. Incidentally we need to stop calling them that, because it is wrong really, and I notice people persisting in calling them dimidiata (and Sarah calling them dimidaita ). It's just gonna confuse everyone more. I think "two-tone" is much more sensible. Anyway, geographically they mix with "normal" immaculata so they're not really a variant, just a very common aberation of dense stripes. For example there are many plain-shelled nominate immaculata. The stripes don't define them as the nominate species since plain-shelled ones are also common.

These two-tone ones do start out with stripes but at a certain point the stripes converge to become practically solid colour. And that is gonna differ for each snail. The point is that we can seperate them as "two-tone" or whatever for our convenience but taxanomically they are still normal immaculata since the nominate form is so variable in size, shape and markings.

That doesn't mean we can't still call them our made-up variant names, but there is no difference between a stripey one and a plain one if you see what I mean, once the geographic info has gone west or if we know they are found mixed.

When all is said and done, and you look at just how variable they are, they make fulica look standard. And as the past attempts to categorise have been largely based on what was believed to be panthera and never took into consideration what at the same time was believed to be immaculata (not that I can find any info), these types are probably redundant or at least would need expert study. I'm winging it as far as taxonomy goes, it's hard to know exactly what takes precedence, geography or appearance. At the moment the publications favour geography because the likelihood of standardisation of depauperation in an area is high. But if you have an albino baby for instance, do you class that as the albino form if one exists? As it stands it seems you don't since the albino is not standardised and isn't believed to have persisted over generations.

I've kept the whimsical variants on my page to help explain the history of this immaculata ID problem and also to help us out with understanding what is what and why. But in a few snail generations and probably now for varieties we have no sure knowledge of, we'd not be able to place them convincingly. And if we did keep the suggested variants, we'd effectively keep the traits because of selected breeding not because they are a particular type.

Whether all this is important is probably academic. The main thing is that we now know they are all immaculata to species level. And because this species is so variable, we can mix immaculata of all "types", knowing that we could never prove subspecies so we're not making things any worse by crossbreeding what we know to be otherwise distinct. By the sound of it, the resulting mix would be similar to what is found in the wild anyway.

So, although I've made it sound completely over-complicated the result is that the species has been completely simplified for us, unless you happen to have wild-caught ones. And if you do, simply consider them as different and name them by location until we know more.

[section8angel]

So are they Lissachatina not just Achatina?

Lissachatina immaculata two-tone.

[KathyM]

It's odd because Justin came from the same batch as Lisa's two tone "dimis" and he's not two tone at all, just a uniform pale ginger colour. He's a little bit darker than the paler parts of Lisa's two. Not sure what to call him now *lol*.

[section8angel]

Cute That's what you call him lol. Maybe he's like that because he's ill?

I don't know if there's some way they can stop things like the shell colouring, if they need energy to try and heal because they're ill.

Or something lol *Mumbles on*

[KathyM]

I dunno, maybe? Is it possible for different variants to emerge from the same batch? It's just that the parents were two tone "dimis" so I expected he would be. Bless him, he's just a weird one.

[section8angel]

Yay. Weird rocks lol.

Well we've all seen how much variation there is with fulica from the same batch so maybe you can get it with immacs.

Or he just isn't getting it as quick. Lisa's ones lost their stripes way before mine but mine are bigger. I don't know if food or anything has something to do with it.

[KathyM]

That might explain things, he doesn't "do" food *sigh* ;D

I keep telling him he doesn't have to try to live up to today's anorexic stereotypes!

[Deleted]

wow those new snails are quite unusual. very nice

[Paul]

section8angel said:

So are they Lissachatina not just Achatina?
Lissachatina immaculata two-tone.

Well, until we know for sure about this Lissachatina thing, they are:

Achatina (Lissachatina) immaculata (Lamarck, 1822)

[section8angel]

Lol @ Justin wanting to be thin. Stop looking at Kate Moss and look at someone with an actual body. Like Charlotte Church!

I'll change the dimis to Achatina immaculata two-tone for now then lol

[ian]

Thanks paul, good explaination. Im looking forward to breeding them now just to see what comes out! I have been in contact with the ebay seller and seen pictures of my dark immacs parents, they are both two-toned! Im pretty sure she is a major supplier on ebay so could have got them from anywhere, unless she just doesnt know what she is talking about or lying for some reason!
So i have 4 immaculata, is the official name of our two toned snails Achatina (Lissachatina) immaculata var. dimidiata or is there actually no distinction whatsoever between the two types?

Ive just had a look a round on the internet for immaculata photos and info apparently the normal immaculata are really rare in africa and protected! My dark stripy two look as though they are normal immaculata but look totally different to mikes one which he has put on the new photos for website thread! Having said that the two new ones are lighter than other two toned babies ive seen photos of.
Do normal immaculata still have the stripes down their neck because mine do?

[Deleted]

er...

well lets say theres two groups of immaculata. 'normal' immaculata and 'two-tone' immaculata.

normal immaculata is like this



(adult)



(juvenile)

and the two-tone one is like this:



(adult)



(juvenile)

so as you can see the young ones look quite similar.

hope this helps