Put to sleep

[Deleted]

:-[As you all know about butter cup who has badly hurt herself i have put her in the fridge to put her to sleep but i wont kill her. The reason i am doing this is that the snail cant go to sleep and is in so much pain so if i put her to sleep she will be out of pain and i will see how she does......

[coyote]

If she was in pain, she will probably be in pain again when taken out of the fridge. Keeping her in the fridge to be out of pain will only postpone the inevitable. Sooner or later she will have to come out of the fridge or she will slowly starve to death.

I'm so sorry about your snail.

[Deleted]

Well at least it poped her organs back into her shell.
She cant go into her shell i tried pushing her but she can because when i push her water comesout of the gap in her shell and her organs come out, should i put her to sleep again then put in freezer?

[Bumblebee]

To be honest, the only humane thing would be to put her in the freezer, cause i really dont think that there is anything that can be done to help her with her problems

[crossless]

I think snail should be put down. Shells only job is to cover vital organs and poking the organs can make infection plus snail should fit inside of shell it's only thing that can save snail for dry air.

So snail is suffering with no doubt.

I would let go, I can survive of loss but I can't watch if any living thing is suffering.

You can't keep putting it back again and again in fridge, you have to put it freezer so she can pass away for ever. Cold air makes snail sleepy and metabolism will slow down, so she won't be cured in fridge.

I have learned with invertebrates that they can't be cured always, so some live normal happy and healthy life and some dies really young age. You just have to realize it's life. You can get always new snail, but it don't need to take old ones place you always will have good memories in your mind.

[daniellejess]

With the water, is it just a little bit & does it come out kinda bubbly? If so, it's because she feels threatened, there's nothing wrong with that. Most of my snails do it when you touch their body when they're inside their shell. So obviously you shouldn't do it. I do every now & then to make sure they're ok because it makes them come out to see what's going off I agree with everyone else though, she seems really poorly & it's best to put her out of her misery. You've done all you can for her & now putting her in the freezer is the best thing for her. We can all tell you love her a lot & if you love something you don't want to see it in pain do you?

[Deleted]

The water is alot and also when i do it bubles come out of hr breathing hole (is this normal) the gap i mean is a hole in her shell and i can see bubbles inside her shell. im putting herin fridge today then freezer tommorow

[Deleted]

when i was checking on hera min ago to see how she was i found out she had died and the water sonme how hd gone into her foot and flooded her organs

[daniellejess]

I do believe that's normal as it really sounds to me like what they do when they feel threatened. It's so sad to hear she's died, I was hoping she'd pull through. R.I.P Buttercup

[coyote]

I'm so sorry about your snail. Rest in peace, Buttercup.

[Caz]

RIP.

[crossless]

I started to wondering about this putting to sleep thing. So this popped to my mind again from some tread were people were talking on one Finnish reptile forum. They said it's better put to sleep snails in boiling water. But it don't make sense that hot boiling water would be faster than cold freezer. Snail dies anyway to huge temperature change and so how it would make difference if it happens in cold or hot way?

Well I think freezer is faster because it's always on if there something in storage. But before boiling you need to fill pan with water and it takes ages and you have next to you like freezer that all ready has - 18 to -25degrees.. Hmmh.. And people usually think that animal is dead when it's frozen but animal first dies and then start to get frozen so putting to sleep and how long it takes snail to froze is two different things..

I will use the freezer not boiling I think I would not have that much power of mind wait till huge amount water is boiling with really huge bubbles and snail is suffering next to me. And this boiling would be really hard to do in countryside when sometimes water pump don't work and it takes really long time to just get water straight from well and the water is usually 0 to 4 degrees and with slow old stove would take ages boil that water.. If I would not have freezer on in countryside and I should put some one to sleep I think I would use stove that we warm daily with wood and fire is over hundred degrees and I think I would move coals away one part of stove and place snail in metal can and close stove for while I think it would be faster than boiling with big snails like adult sized a.fulicas.

[Bumblebee]

Well what I have read, freezing to death is quite painfull, since your particles and so in the body begins to crystalize. Snails are cold blooded though, and adjust their temperature through the surrounding, so im not really that sure how a sudden temperature drop would affect them...
And freezing to death dosn't go instantly either.. Sure a freezer is a bit cold as it it, but it isn't so cold that it instantly kills. It will still take a bit of time before the body gives up.

Only thing i have found about freezing as euthinization (wow that feels so mistyped lol), is for amphibians, and apparently for them, freezing is rather painfull. And I have to admit, I don't know if a snail and a frog got that much in comment? But still..

talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread&forum=3&topic=18338

(there are some interesting links a bit further down in that forum post)


I tbh think that boiling a snail actually would be a quicker death. Sure, it can take 5-10 minutes for water to boil depending on the stove, but I really do doubt that a freezer kills a snail within those minutes.
There are of course instant ways of killing a snail too, but I don't think that it is anything someone want to do at all to their beloved slimey...

[crossless]

Yep. I think still I stick with that freezing just have to remember put snail first to fridge so it can lower tissues water level down so it would freeze before it's actually dead that is what snails do in wild too when air is starting to cooler.. Have to just wait long enough so snail is done the progress before putting it to freezer.

[coyote]

A snail native to tropical areas would go into estivation if placed in the refrigerator. It would be unconscious if then placed in the freezer.

I would imagine any ill snail placed directly in the freezer would go unconscious fairly quickly if it was not already unconscious due to illness. I would be surprised if a snail would stay conscious for very long in a freezer.

WRT boiling water, I have my doubts that death would be instantaneous for a snail. It would be quick, of course, but not instantaneous, especially for a large snail with more tissue to be penetrated by the heat.

There are instantaneous ways of euthanizing, but without access to injectable drugs, the remaining means are too violent for most snail keepers to be willing to do.

I remember the first time I had to euthanize one of my snails, I didn't want to take him out of the freezer after I put him in there. For some irrational reason I felt like he would come back to life if he thawed out (he had swollen mouth). He stayed in the freezer for 2 months before I could bring myself to take him out and bury him in the garden.

[aerliss]

Death by excessive heat... no, the very IDEA terrifies me. I couldn't do that at all. I've spent far too much time reading about torture and execution methods involving excessive heat. Just.. gah.

All animals fall into unconsciousness before death when cooled down, both warm and cold blooded. Death through extreme heat, however, does not induce unconsciousness before death. It's pain and then death.

The issue is how long does it take for unconsciousness/death to kick in? Does it come before it starts to hurt?

I'm not going to bother referencing any material, because I've read a pretty big chunk of utterly contradictory articles and research (unfortunately most of it about crustaceans, but that's as close to molluscs as you're going to get at the moment; lots of people interesting in the most humane way to eat lobster >_> )... and can't be bothered hunting down all the links.

Basically; no one really knows if freezing is any better than quick boiling or slow boiling.

With freezing (or cooling and then freezing), the argument is made that the animal loses consciousness before the liquid in its body begins to freeze, thus reducing the suffering. However, some counter this with the idea that we don't know if the animal is actually unconscious or if it is simply in torpor (unable to move but still awake and feeling).

We don't know.

With boiling I've actually read different time scales for time to going in the pot to death. Some have said a few seconds, most say 3-5 minutes and a couple (PETA, notably) claim it can take up to 15 minutes (personally I think they're exaggerating a tad).

Either way; a few words that were repeated most often in the stuff I've been reading are; thrashing, trembling, twitching and fighting. The length of time it takes them to die is sufficient enough for them to give it a good go at getting out of the water. Sure, it'll take less time for a snail than lobster, but it'll still be significant.

A method currently being promoted is electrocution. Not sure I'd recommend this one for home use though... could be a bit dangerous! Unless you're willing to fork out for a CrustaStun (£1500-2500, depending on which site you get your news from >_> ).

So we're back at square one; not enough research has been done. Of course, any research will involve the killing of a lot of animals... it's a bit of a no win situation.

Orajel was mentioned in that one thread. This is an interesting idea for snail euthanasia. The main ingredient in Orajel is benzocaine, which is used in abalone farms to gently anaesthetise them for easier removal from the substrate without killing them.

It seems to also be used to anaesthetise fish;

"Benzocaine can also be used as a fish anaesthetic. Due to its low solubility in water, stock solution can be made with ethanol (95%). 25g of benzocaine per 200ml ethanol will make a solution strong enough to knock saltwater fish out in 2-4 minutes. They will regain equilibrium after 10-15 minutes. Use 5ml stock solution per 1L of saltwater. Some benzocaine will precipitate out of solution when added to the saltwater, so it is recommended to add the volume of stock solution you will be using to a separate container and mix it with some saltwater before adding it to the tank."

A higher solution in a bath (or not, depending on the size of your snail)? And then in the freezer, just to make sure? This seems like a far better way to go about things to me. Also; use gloves!

A note for anyone not in the US (like me); Bonjela is NOT the same as Orajel. It doesn't contain benzocaine. However, it is the main ingredient in other topical pain relief... things. Throat sprays, other, cheaper ulcer relief gels. While other pain relieving chemicals may act the same way on humans and other mammals, I wouldn't presume to say that they'll work that way on inverts. Benzocaine DOES anaesthetise molluscs, so if you want to try this method then look for something with benzocaine high up in its ingredient list.

You can also buy benzocaine as is, generally of the internet... I wouldn't recommend this.

Of course, the MOST humane way is a brick.. but by golly will that be messy with the GALS o.O

[EDIT]

Oh. My. Gods. My head hurts now. That's it... no more learning for me this week. My head's ready to explode.

[coyote]

Thanks for all that info, aerliss. And yes, take a break from research for a while.

I have one thing to add WRT the animal losing consciousness during freezing. Recently I read the blog of an animal welfare activist who, many years ago, was given some unwanted bird chicks by a veterinarian to euthanize by freezing. Hours later when she took them out of the freezer she was horrified to find them frozen in grotesque postures of screaming with their beaks wide open in terror and agony. (That was one of many experiences that led her eventually to become an animal welfare activist.)

Now, an invert may have a nervous system different enough from a bird or mammal that would not result in that kind of experience, but no one knows for sure. I do know that snails native to temperate climates (cepaeas, aspersas, etc), if cooled down slowly, can adapt to survive being frozen without dying (that's how they over-winter to reappear in the spring). So with cooling in the refrigerator prior to euthanizing in the freezer, there is a risk of hindering the process. But I don't know if snails native to tropical areas (such as GALS) have that same ability.

I would imagine that the only fool-proof way of euthanizing by freezing would be to plunge the snail straight into a container of liquid nitrogen or perhaps dry ice -- the extreme cold would cause the quickest possible demise.

I think the benzocaine option is worth looking into further.

[coyote]

I don't know anyone who would choose to euthanize by brick, regardless of it efficacy. Who could blame us for preferring an alternative?

[ness]

That's a very interesting read. I have also wondered how long it takes for a snail to freeze (of course size plays a part) and how much suffering it feels.
I have totally and thoroughly crushed a few snails before now to put them out of their misery, mainly ones outside that have been troden on but are still trying to move around, but are definitley fatally injured.

It's not nice at all, can't blame anyone for not wanting to crush them.

Benzocane, interesting. I wonder what we use in the UK to aneasthetise fish? I'll have to look later....

[aerliss]

Coyote, oh I know... I couldn't use a brick. Even though, in the end, it is the best thing for them it's completely the worst thing for us. Selfish? Probably... but, gah. No. I have to go and get my partner to put dying bees out of their misery. I just can't do it.

Ness, I think that quote was from a UK fisheries/RSPCA site... but I could be wrong and I can't find it now as it was no another computer I wrote it.

Another anaesthetic method to look into;

www.ratemyfishtank.com/articles/81

"Tricaine Methanesulfonate (TMS). This method is probably the most quoted by people with much experience in euthanizing fish humanely (i.e. for university experiments, etc.). TMS is also known as MS222 and commercially is known as Finquel. You can buy it from a pet supply store; Drs. Foster and Smith carry it; a bottle costs $24.99 plus shipping and handling. You can also buy this from PondRx ($14.99 plus shipping and handling for a 5 gram bottle) and Argent Labs. According to fish biologist Meyers' blog, simply by doubling the regular dose that you would use to anesthetize the fish will euthanize it. This substance is FDA approved for anesthetizing and euthanizing fish; it is the only product that is FDA approved to anesthetize fish."

(my spell checker doesn't like all those American spellings XD )

I'll see if I can find anything to link this to use in molluscs tomorrow night, or Saturday.

More on topical agents in the Fish, Amphibians and Reptiles section; www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

I should probably just start another thread... oh well. Next time.

[coyote]

Thanks for those links, aerliss.

That PDF file is big, 565 KB, so be prepared for a rather long download if you want to save it. It's a good reference to have, though.

Ness, I too have thoroughly crushed snails to put them out of their misery when I've seen them mortally injured in the wild. Not fun at all, but it's really the best thing to do for the snail.

[ness]

Wow aerliss you've really done your research! I had no idea these products existed. If this discussion results in a truely humane way of putting snails or any other inverts out of distress then that would be wonderful!

If these products work the same on inverts as they do on fish then it's a great find

[coyote]

That's the big question for me, is how directly does the use of these products translate from fish to snails.

[lee2211]

Clove oil is used to aenethatize (sp?) and euthanize fish.
Could it work?

[ness]

OOh been looking up the clove oil. I can't see any info on it's use on anything but fish.
Many substances that harm fish harm snails, but there are also things that harm snails and will not harm fish, one obvious one is the anti-snail treatment sold for aquariums. Therefore it's hard to ascertain without access to scientific data of whether or not any of these methods would help a snail to peacefully go to sleep ready for a painless death, of if they will have an adverse reaction and cause pain to snails. But it is intriguing. It would be nice to know of a kind method for snails.