Put to sleep

[crossless]

I remember when we had fish tank we had to poison snails, because they breed so fast. But I think snail poison would not be good we can't get anywhere that kind of poison that affects to exotic snails and I think it's not good for snails die that way neither.

Fire extinguisher would have cold carbon dioxide in them, but well I would use it only when house is on fire.. Would suffocation feel any nicer than die to than temperature change? Some put to sleep some baby mice with soda streamers carbon dioxide bottle.

[ness]

I agree, snail poison is not likely to be designed to take into account any suffering the snails may feel.

[coyote]

In that PDF document from the AVMA, clove oil is not recommended for euthanasia: "Because adequate and appropriate clinical trials have not been performed on fish to evaluate its effects, use of clove oil is not acceptable."

I know that malacologists collecting specimens in the wild will drop a slug or snail into a container of alcohol to kill it and preserve it for future study. I have no idea how quickly that method produces death, but I imagine it would not be immediate and there would be at least some degree of discomfort if not actual pain involved.

[ness]

Well drowning in alcohol would be painful for mammals. Alcohol and eyes don't mix well, neither does alcohol and lungs! lol.
Pain would unlikely be perceived in the same way in snails, but that's not to say there would be no pain or other form of stress. I certainly wouldn't want to try the method. The thing is it's hard to know whether or not a snail is experiencing pain or distress. There are some signs of stress, such as bubbling from the air hole, curling up tight into it's shell etc, but other than that i wouldn't know how to tell.

It's a tough one this is........

[coyote]

It is a difficult topic to consider, no matter how you look at it. No one wants to have to do it, but no one wants their snail to suffer either.

I'm not surprised this information is hard to find about snails, because most research done on them is from the perspective of their role as agricultural pests, and not on how to keep them really healthy and prevent pain and suffering. That's why any information that can be gleaned on how best to put them to sleep is really valuable.

[lee2211]

Clove oil is used widely to put fish to sleep.

Basically, what you do is mix a bit up with some water, add it to the water the fish is in. It will fall asleep and then you add some more where it will then die.
It's very effective and many people use it.

[lee2211]

It means they drift to sleep peacefully.
It's also good for toothache.

I think personally, that anyway you try to put a snail to sleep it will stressful and painful, but you have to do it the best way you know how. As long as you can make it as quick as possible, try not to prolong the suffering I think that's the best we'll be able to do no matter what outlook you take.

[aerliss]

As someone who has spilled clove oil in her eye; ow, ow ow ow!

Have no idea what that means for its use with molluscs... just sayin' XD

[lee2211]

I could imagine that might hurt XD

I don't know, I thought maybe you could mix it in some water, and then sit them in it?
It might not be so peaceful though..

[crossless]

I would not drown land snails! I image how it would feel before you die your lungs fill up with toxic water and you can breath.. :/

I have witnessed one drowning so that I have waterfall in terrarium one unwanted baby climbed on it and there was too much water for that snail. It was just hatched and it took 1 to 2 hours to that small thing drown. I had something housekeeping to do and I forgot to take baby out and put it to sleep after 1 to 2hours I remembered the baby, but it was too late.

[aerliss]

We're not talking about drowning them, crossless, but using a diluted anaesthetic to literally 'put them to sleep.'

Looking into Tricaine Methanesulfonate, the one used to anaesthetise fish. IF it works on molluscs, it looks promising because it blocks motor function and sensory input. The fish not only can't move but can't feel anything either. Even if the amount didn't kill the animal, it would prevent it feeling any pain when put into the deep freeze.

Nerg, getting onto the really scientific stuff now. BIG words I don't quite know the meaning of.

'nociceptive stimuli' = a painful stimuli. Honestly, why not just say painful?

[lee2211]

Yeah.
Sorry Crossless about what happened, I didn't mean that at all. I think drowning, or being in a fire, is probably the worst possible death I could imagine.

But yes aerliss, that sounds like such a good idea. But how the hell could we test it?

[aerliss]

I'm hoping someone else has already tested it... Not having much luck finding a paper though.

Have discovered, however, that you can't buy fish anaesthetics in the UK as only vets are allowed use them. Grrr. Looks like it might have to be clove oil.

If you're in the USA though, you can buy tricaine in pet stores.

Hooookay. Done a load of reading (and getting distracted by marine life vids on youtube >_> ) and have got some good notes on FISH anaesthesia and analgesia. Now to go look for mollusc stuff. You can poke through my notes though;

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11277197

OBJECTIVE: To compare the anesthetic efficacy and physiologic changes associated with exposure to tricaine methanesulfonate and clove oil (100% eugenol). ANIMALS: 15 adult cultured red pacu (Piaractus brachypomus). PROCEDURE: Fish were exposed to each of 6 anesthetic concentrations in a within-subjects complete crossover design. Stages of anesthesia and recovery were measured, and physiologic data were collected before and during anesthesia. RESULTS: Interval to induction was more rapid and recovery more prolonged in fish exposed to eugenol, compared with those exposed to tricaine methanesulfonate. The margin of safety for eugenol was narrow, because at the highest concentration, most fish required resuscitation. Mixed venous-arterial PO2 consistently decreased with anesthesia, while PCO2 consistently increased with anesthesia in all fish regardless of anesthetic agent. The increase in PCO2 was accompanied by a decrease in pH, presumably secondary to respiratory acidosis. Anesthesia was associated with increased blood glucose, potassium, and sodium concentrations as well as Hct and hemoglobin. Fish anesthetized with eugenol were more likely to react to a hypodermic needle puncture than fish anesthetized with tricaine methanesulfonate. CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: Anesthesia induced with tricaine methanesulfonate or eugenol contributes to hypoxemia, hypercapnia, respiratory acidosis, and hyperglycemia in red pacu. Similar to tricaine methanesulfonate, eugenol appears to be an effective immobilization compound, but eugenol is characterized by more rapid induction, prolonged recovery, and a narrow margin of safety. Care must be taken when using high concentrations of eugenol for induction, because ventilatory failure may occur rapidly. In addition, analgesic properties of eugenol are unknown.

dels-old.nas.edu/ilar_n/ilarjournal/50_4/pdfs/v5004Neiffer.pdf
page 11 table
Clove oil is not a perfect analgesic; fish react to invasive proceedures page 12
2-PE is a poor analgesia p13

And because fi sh have μ and κ opiate receptors
throughout the brain, it is reasonable to expect some effect
of opioid treatments in fi sh experiencing noxious stimuli

www.fishdoc.co.uk/treatments/anaesthetics02.htm
Stock prep
stringent regulations from the Veterinary Medicines Directorate (VMD) has meant that anaesthetics/antibiotics are now illegal for use, by anybody other than a Qualified Vet.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWnU0QYKWSk
Use of Kusuri Masuizai in koi. Based on 2-phenoxyethanol (2-PE)

[coyote]

According to the study quoted above, it sounds like clove oil works faster than tricaine methanesulfonate, and is a bit more dangerous. Which could be useful for euthanasia purposes, actually, if what's true for fish translates to gastropods.

[crossless]

Interesting. Wondering just how this clove oil water should be give to snail. Bath? Spray? Pouring on?

I read from wikipedia that about 3,75mg per 1kilo of human weight would be deadly.

I think clove oil water should be quite strong so you could be more sure it's working..

[lee2211]

Hmm...
I suppose a bath, but it could take a while.
So I'm not really sure, just sit them in some warm water, that will gently send them to sleep, then pop them in the freezer.

[aerliss]

Anyone have an Athens account?

tinyurl.com/39hmpgw

Google previews is missing the ONE page I need to get to >_>

[coyote]

US $31.50 for non-members to access the PDF. Too rich for my blood.

I clicked on the Related Articles link and found some interesting items, but the preview is useless and the purchase price for the full article is prohibitive.

[aerliss]

I'm hunting through my student friends to find someone with an Athens account. They'll get free/cheaper access to the articles.

More great articles, but again; costly

[jacky230766]

i agree with ness , it's always a difficult time for anyone and to be able to know the quickest and best way for our beloved little slimer to go is always top of the list,i've found this thread both sadding and interesting,sorry to hear about buttercup,i'm sure you did your best,R<I<P

[aerliss]

Well I had to put my old fuli to sleep tonight. I say 'old', I don't actually know how old Avery is. I've had him for about three years and he has grown only a few millimetres since I got him.

I tried using clove oil to knock him out. First a warm bath of 100ml water with 10 drops of clove oil. That did very little and he didn't seem pained by it; no sudden retraction. After about 1 minute I added another 10 drops and this had a definite effect. He retracted completely over about 20 seconds. It wasn't sudden and there was no bubbling so I don't think it hurt him.

After another 30 seconds he became completely unresponsive.

I emptied the water, leaving a layer of oil on the base of the tub and put him in the freezer. Hopefully the clove oil will keep him completely pain free as the ice sets in.

[ness]

Thank you for posting this, even though you are feeling upset. It's interesting that he didn't bubble. As you say that's a good sign that there was no irritation to the oil.
It's not conclusive, but i doubt that it ever will be, but it does sound quite positive.
Thanks again, and RIP little Avery x

[Neo53]

After spending the time to read this entire article *wipes sweat from brow* I would say the only answer to finding out, with the lack of research, is for us to try it ourselves. I know it would be hard to potentially put our beloved slimies through possible pain, might be helpful to keep in mind that a few trials and errors now will help many many more slimies in the future - Share what we learn and become stronger from it? Yet again, its still not fun either way you look at it :/

I think this is an amazing topic. I find the prospect of us as a community pioneering the way to better snail care amazing and hope that through our community of snail lovers find the right answer instead of waiting for who-knows-how-long for someone else to work out the right answers (while we could be going about it all wrong, or without the knowledge to something better). It would be interesting to see what comes, from the those of us willing to try, from future trials. Serious love being sent Aerliss' way for giving the clove oil a try. Sounds like encouraging results.

On a final note, many prayers and condolences to to Avery and Buttercup's owners.

[snailbert]

Would helium gas be an alternative?

It is the best (or lets say the most humane at least) way to kill a human, meaning that there is absolutely no pain or suffocation, you just fall asleep and are brain dead after 2-3 minutes since helium blocks oxygen.

I don't know if it would work with snails tough, any toughts?

Quote:

It is usually used in conjunction with an inert gas like helium or nitrogen, which prevents the panic, sense of suffocation and struggling even when unconscious (the hypercapnic alarm response) caused by the deprivation of oxygen in the presence of carbon dioxide.

[coyote]

Interesting idea. Snails don't breathe the way vertebrates do, though, so the helium experience might be very different for the snail.