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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2005 1:21:26 GMT
You may have seen the cybersnail post regarding the confusion of species of between dimidiata and immaculata. I have seen what appear to be dimidiata listed as immaculata. Fredrik identified mine as dimidiata because years ago he got some from Africa listed as such and they appear to be the type we all know and love. It would seem the following pics are definitely immaculata: Then there is Yuri's which appears to be more like a striped dimidiata than the ones above: Now, here is a picture Anneth's possible immaculata. I brightened it up to help demonstrate the two-colour shell that makes it look like a dimidiata. So, at first I instantly thought that it was a dimidiata mis-named. But, and here is where it gets a little weird. I found the following picture from home.global.co.za/~peabrain/achatina.htm (South African snail society website): This picture is from the same collection as picture 2 and 3, all listed as immaculata. It mentions that all immaculata have a pink lip. Unfortunately, this doesn't help because dimidiata do unless we can find out that dimidiata are not supposed to have this feature. It looks like Anneth's but has a dark body. So what do you think and how the hell do we find out? Are the two species the same? Are the dimidiata actually albino immaculata without stripes? Is the dark bodied one the typical dimidiata and we have albinos and the website is wrong? Unfortunately neither species is documented in Bequaert's book. They are mentioned only in passing. The dimidiata sounds similar to the dimidiata we have but some stripes are mentioned. And it says immaculata is unconfirmed and is likely to be a sub-species of panthera, in which case, they would all be called immaculata because it is the earliest name. As we still apparently have panthera I guess this idea was wrong or never pursued. paul
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2005 1:27:24 GMT
I think it is about time we arranged for a meeting with the British Natural History Museum. I'd like to spend a day studying their collections. Plus, we need the info Eric has asked about. This is where a society comes into its own. They're not likely to indulge a few of us as individuals but a society sounds so much more serious. I'd really like to quiz a few experts face to face.
This has to happen coz we need to end these ID problems once and for all. I think I will go mad if we don't.
paul
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2005 3:13:36 GMT
Has anyone heard of the plan to catalogue all life on the planet: news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4251309.stmIf we can get the right people fired up and interested maybe we can get African snail species defined sooner than we think. All we need is a few advocates to hook into the project. paul
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Post by natrat84 on Jun 22, 2005 5:57:08 GMT
All very interesting isn't it. Are we talking a 'meet up' at the national history museum? Nat
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2005 6:19:39 GMT
Eventually yes, but I think we'd need to get the mollusc experts based there to work with us.
That's why the society idea is a good one. We can split up tasks and in this case, a group of us could go down. But we'd all need to do our homework first to make sure it was fully worthwhile. Apparently it's the biggest collection inthe world so we'd need to know what we were doing.
paul
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Post by natrat84 on Jun 22, 2005 6:25:53 GMT
Wow Well I'm up for it. I am a bit dippy ;D but I can take photos ;D Hehe no I'd love to be involved it sounds great. Nat
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Post by natrat84 on Jun 22, 2005 6:28:48 GMT
By the way Paul. Have you actually had any sleep? Lol You posted at 4.13 and again now Your truly hooked ;D Nat
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2005 7:02:33 GMT
Yep, I've been up all night working so I made the occasional post here, ahem paul
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Post by natrat84 on Jun 22, 2005 7:04:51 GMT
Lmao you'll be needed the pro plus pills
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Arno
Archachatina puylaerti
Posts: 1,493
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Post by Arno on Jun 22, 2005 18:34:56 GMT
Well here are my two(euro)cents:I don't think dimidiata and immaculata are the same species,the shells are too different for that.There could be a pale and a dark bodied dimidiata. I heard of panthera "blue form" (some of the shells in the pics look a bit bluish)so maybe immaculata is/was a subspecies of panthera.The snail in Yuri's pic looks like the immaculata's i once had(but unfortunatly died).
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2005 19:02:13 GMT
Do you think Christabel's was a blue form?: It looks blueish and it is different than others I have seen. I am tending to agree with you here Arno. I think the immaculata's listed that look like dimidiata are actually dimidiata including Anneth's and the dark bodied one. Would you agree? If that is the case I wonder which type of dimidiata is the most common? Are ours albinos or just a light coloured form. I'd love a couple of the black form. I'm gonna eventually put this all on my website. Do you think this is a fair assessment of the situation?
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Arno
Archachatina puylaerti
Posts: 1,493
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Post by Arno on Jun 22, 2005 19:06:05 GMT
Yes to all three questions,Paul.But I don't know which form is the most common.
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Post by bookitten on Jun 22, 2005 19:23:38 GMT
the first question: i reckon it is a blue one, cos if ya look at one of the other pages, there is a panthera upside down with a blue shell. i wanted a blue one!
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2005 19:29:19 GMT
Do you have a url, I'd like to have a look?
paul
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Post by bookitten on Jun 22, 2005 19:55:24 GMT
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Post by Paul on Jun 22, 2005 20:04:51 GMT
Yeah, thanks. That's the same snail I think. I'll include it here so people can see the blueish tint. It shows up better on this pic: Sophie, did you get my pm about the species list?
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Post by bookitten on Jun 22, 2005 20:14:56 GMT
uh? No. pm?
sophie
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Post by bookitten on Jun 22, 2005 20:18:15 GMT
WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! yes actually! didnt notice that thing till now!
lol
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Post by Paul on Jul 1, 2005 6:41:03 GMT
Just to add further, I found this: on www.calacademy.orgThey list it as an immaculata shell. So this must be one of the white shelled individuals (or faded perhaps) that people get mistaken with dimidiata. You can clearly see the lines and they don't look the same as dimidiata when you compare them. For those wondering, that is a Cornu aspersum in the shell, just used to show scale.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2005 9:54:27 GMT
we're all getting too confused. Wild immaculata can be very polymorphic. I have never seen a wild dimidiata, and maybe they are also polymorphic, but all the captive dimidiata look pretty much the same. and all captive immaculata look a lot different to them mostly.
Achatina panthera and immaculata sometimes cross-breed, and they are both polymorphic, but there are numerous differences, especially that immaculata are a lot smaller, reaching only about 10-12cm.
kind regards
mike
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2005 14:20:20 GMT
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Post by Paul on Jul 17, 2005 16:05:17 GMT
I don't agree. I think that the dimidiata looking immaculata listed in that link are dimidiata and not immaculata. You'll notice a lot of people calling them albino immaculata, which we know they aren't.
If you look at the parents of my dimidiata adults (Gray's), a lot of them have a less contrasting and less distinct colour separation. That in itself would indicate variation. I also have some with very pale bodies and some with darker ones.
So, I can't be certain but I'm pretty sure Anneths are dimidiata, I've seen pictures of hers that she posted to cybersnail and they look exactly like my adults. I think somewhere down the line, they were wrongly identified as albino immaculata. Perhaps it has been even more confused because some dimidiata have stripes that haven't converged into continuous colour.
The trouble is that when you look at the info in the snail world, a lot of it has never been verified and tends to come from superstition or myth if you like. Some info appears on a website and then it gets cribbed. We've found that to be the case in various areas. That is why we need to get some proper help with identification, to sort this out once and for all.
Fredrik got some wild-caught dimidiata from South Africa and he identified mine. The fact that they were caught there corroborates Bequaert's info on the species and probably further disproves any immaculata connection.
In fact Bequaert seems to think immaculata are more related to panthera and could in fact be a sub-species. How that panned out subsequently I have no idea.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2005 17:47:23 GMT
yes but, of all the dimidiata i have ever seen, all have had obese shells. and many immaculata have slender shells. anneth's immaculata has a more slender shell than any dimidiata i have seen, the flesh is also more orange.
albinos have white skin. pure white, not yellowy-orange like dimidiata.
can you show me a picture of your adult dimidiata?
kind regards
mike
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Post by Paul on Jul 17, 2005 19:03:58 GMT
Really? The pictures I saw were the same as mine. Having said that, there is variation.
About the albino thing, that's my point, I think they were wrongly mistaken for albinos which is obviously wrong. If you search the net you'll see "immaculata (albino)" and clearly they aren't.
I don't have any pictures but I'll get you some.
Have you got the pictures or links to them? I'd like to look at the shell shape again to compare.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2005 19:17:27 GMT
well look at all the pictures of immaculata on the first page of this thread. the first shell is quite slender. i havent seen any dimidiata with shells that shape. all im saying is that just because there is a slight two-tone effect in the last whorl of the shell doesnt mean its dimidiata, everything else points to it being immaculata.
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