Mantle Collapse. RIP Goku

[red608]

So I come home from work and find one of my snails upside down sliming around but upon closer inspection well...pics can explain better





is he swollen? been ignoring the cuttle for too long? fatty? I've never seen them look like this before so I am at a complete loss.

I have quarantined him with some food and multiple sources of calcium as well as a few pumpkin seeds until I figure out why he looks like this.

I had just woken him up from estivation before going to bed yesterday (i sleep days, work nights) and I really didn't inspect my snails when I woke up a few hours later since I was running late (wish I had now).

edit: I also did give him a mini bath of sorts to see if that would help. The pics were taken after it so you can see how well it helped >.< also nothing new added to tank or any real diet changes, I always buy same stuff for food

Renamed. Please next time name better so people can know from title what is content of topic. - CroSSLeSS

SEARCHmantle_collapse

[red608]

theres a popping noise as he breaths...is he struggling to breathe?

other than that i swear he hasnt stopped moving, climbing and sliming around XD also got him to munch on some cuttle

[spook]

Looks like mantle collapse to me.....sorry to say but there's not much hope for the little guy

[red608]

is there any chance of recovery from a mantle collapse? =[

I mean he just seems so...active right now, it's hard to fathom why he would continue to climb as he is if that was what it was (I do have him in a shallow bowl at the moment, it's a pain tryin to keep him in it though as I do not have a lid for it at the moment

[spook]

I doubt there's much chance of recovery......the mantle detaches itself from it's shell......so eventually the body will just come away from the shell all together........unfortunately a snail can't survive without it's shell.......sorry

[red608]

Well, I think I'm just going to keep him in the shallow bowl and see how he's doing later...if he takes a turn for the worse I will euthenise him but with him having just ate some cuttle and acting so lively I coud never justify not waiting to see what will happen.

[Deleted]

Right, there is hope, you've got to put him in a smaller tank so he/she can't move around much because it's putting strain on the mantle muscle and lungs, (that's why he/she's making a popping sound when he/she breathes. You've got to keep him/her in much more humid conditions than usual because the snail finds it hard to retract from mantle collapse. You have to spray the snail very regularly to keep him/her very moist. Give him food, cuttlefish and water close to him/her so he/she doesn't have to move around to get to it. Then you've just got to hope. hope this helps. And could you tell me if you've dropped him or if he's old. Hope the little guy lives.

[red608]

yes it does help, thank you. And no I do not regularly handle my snails despite thinking originally that I would. Coyote could answer better about the age but I think about a year old? Id have to double check later I really dont remember when she posted about having the eggs. For now he's all set up in smaller container and i'm going to bed, 4hrs of sleep.for an 12hr shift should be fun tonight.

[red608]

How can I name it properly IF I DONT KNOW WHAT IS WRONG?! I was asking for help thus the title made perfect sense

[crossless]

I don't like it go personal, but if you name topics so that you can have at least little tip what is about before you click to see more like "snails shell is falling off" etc. It's easier to people search information in future. And I write that sentence everywhere not to be rube, but it's just reminder to future that it's good to think better title if you can.

[red608]

Sorry I'm extremely overtired and emotionally at my whits end now since coming home from work so if my last post came off wrong I am sorry for that.

I will try to keep in mind those guidelines for future post names, can't promise anything though, I panic easily and my brain shuts down when I'm tired ;D


edit: Just something that made me laugh, when I put the lid on Goku's smaller enclosure he basically went, "OOO THE LID I CAN STRETCHEZ UP 2 REACH THAT AND GO UPSIDE DOWNZ!" Soo much for not stressing the mantle XD

[fabrizio]

Hello,
I had a Helix pomatia with the same problem, and it died some times later... yet much more because of travel stress/warmth suffering once arrived tom y place, than for the "prolapse" itself.

I noticed, that it was growing a further portion of shell to cover it, despite it had already a maturity-lip at the shell-mouth; so it was growing with a "two-lipped" shell, and I saw pictures of some wild Helix pomatia that have clear hints of that
(your is a different species, but the phenomenon could be common to most different ones).

-It could be "pathological" of course, and most probabily it's so; but it could be, too, an "evolutionary" sympthom, as if the body's growth is not "tuned" with shell-growth yet.

That could prelude, in the millenia, to development of a smaller-shelled species, as it happens in the evolutionary route towards "limacization" (=becoming a slug);
-Or it could produce "multi-lipped" shells, as some that are observed in Nature /Acroptychia metableta var. abortiva is an example, among land snails; and Epitoniidae are a better example, among marine species. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epitonium_scalare

-As it happens along Evolution, such variations are mostly deadly and dead-ends, lest very favourable conditions are present, to provide their survival and propagation.

-In your case, until a new shell layer is built, the snail is much more exposed to desiccation; so, as other members already suggested, I could suggest you to check it often for humidity, and spray quite often, avoiding sogging of course.

If it is due to survive, a further shell layer and a subsequent labium shoud appear soon

[coyote]

I think if anyone is asking for help, just put the best description you can think of at the moment for the title, and a mod can change it later on as appropriate. Don't stress over it.

I'm so sorry about your snail. Mantle collapse does put pressure on the lung, making it difficult for the snail to breathe. Keep him somewhere where he can't climb. He's a young snail (I can't recall at the moment his hatch date, but he's not older than a year), so age is not a factor.

Mantle collapse can happen at any age and for reasons poorly understood, even when we take the best care possible of our snails. I have never had one recover from it (but most of mine were very young, weak hatchlings). I hope your little guy recovers!

[red608]

I have him in a container maybe 2inches deep? He's been a pain to keep from climbing since I got home, though maybe thats a good sign that he still has strength to do that stuff right? He was still eating and otherwise thus far seems completely unphased by this mantle problem(and the breathing issues I noticed, not that that stops him mind you) so hopefully he'll continue to do well and not take a turn for the worse. *crosses fingers*


edit: also went and checked, your post in classifieds was oct 2009 so prob hatched like august/september or so. Almost a year =]

[lee2211]

Thank you for this thread. I'm currently cleaning up the section and I could find NO posts with decent pictures ect of what mantle collapse looks like. It may be no consollation, but it will help people in the future.

I do hope he recovers and gets back to normal.

[Deleted]

He seems a bit of a mentalist of a snail to me. Once again. Hope he makes a full recovery

[fabrizio]

Here it is my Helix pomatia, I wrote about; you can notice the shell growth, beyond the lip.

mondogasteropodi.forumfree.it/?t=30209687

If the mantle has really "collapsed", that is, it is no more kept open and widespreaded by its adhering to inner shell walls, it would be critical indeed (and you should notice a general suffering in the overall behaviour);
but if it's just a "prolapse", and the lung cavity manage to stay operating, I believe it could survive and adjust itself.

-Avoid any un-necessasry stress, of course; yet if it behave normally I believe there are good chances.

[red608]

lee honestly, if my snail doesnt make it i'm glad that atleast some good can come of it and the pics could help others

@goftrey thank you ^_^

fabrizio you've posted some very interesting info for reading thanks for sharing that with me =] I also believe he may already be stressed because of his rehoming =/ he appears to still be breathing ok i'm trying to let him be as he is still upside down -_- and opening the container could cause further damage. Before I go to bed tonight I plan to take a closer look to see if he is still as lively as he was earlier, for now i'll let him be so can rest ... sorry for block of txt im posting from cell and cant fix really

I took some extra dots away. - CroSSLeSS

[fabrizio]

Thank you Red I hope that could be somehow "encouraging", yet all depends upon the snail's stamina, at last!

-I believe you're acting the best way, letting it humid and un-disturbed; placing it gently nearer to food could be good, as well as providing mpre powdered calcium, as it could build the "further trait of whorl" I said above...

I wish you good luck with your snail

[red608]

Update: Honestly this snail has me thinking at the moment that he's going to make it(i realize he could take a turn for the worse at any time). I woke up this morning and he had eaten quite a bit of romaine lettuce and he's on the other side of the container (upside down mind you yet again) but I can tell from his poop that he has also been in to the oyster shell and cuttle.

My question is while he can't fully retract into his shell will he try and estivate? How would I tell if he was and if he did should I allow him to or wake him up?

I did poke a ton of holes in the containers top but I am still concerened mold may start to grow on the substrate, I can NOT take the lid off periodically to help with ventilation because he likes to hang from the lid to sleep and I don't want to risk hurting him more by lifting the lid more often. So do you think it would be ok given the circumstances to change the substrate a bit more. I know a super clean container is not the healthiest for a snail but I don't think mold will help him either. Suggestions?

Also keep in mind that while I do have the next few days off I do work 11hour shifts, with a total of a two hour commute to and from work so while I can have my mother spray to keep humidity up I am not comfortable having her take the lid off etc.

[Paul]

I agree, you don't want mold growing. The problem with mantle collapse is that whilst they're more prone to suffering dry conditions they are also more susceptible to infection, which dryness helps to combat.

You need humidity and air-flow which is hard to balance.

In your case, I think changing the substrate often is a good idea.

[red608]

Ok thank you! How often do you think would be acceptable?

I'm also going to re-do the lid so there is even more holes for ventilation, I bought extra just in case ;D

also thank you Crossless for editing out the dots from prev post from last night ^_^

[lee2211]

I'd put air holes in the side of the tub just above the substrate
CO2 is heavier than oxygen and will sink to the bottom.
He could become inactive and with the strain on his lungs all ready you want to give him good air circulation.

[red608]

will do! thanks for tip ;D

[lee2211]

I was clearing up and I found another thread about mantle collapse. It has pictures after the complete collapse so I thought I'd add it for reference or if anyone wants to know what it looks like.
petsnails.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pests&action=display&thread=9218

Pictures of the beggining of mantle collapse.
petsnails.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pests&action=display&thread=5913

Warning! Graphic pictures!

www.petsnails.co.uk/problems/mantle_collapse.html#start I've also added the petsnails page for mantle tears and collapse, you've probably already read it but incase someone else has the same problem.

This is one were a snail recovered from mantle collapse twice
petsnails.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=pests&action=display&thread=7617