'snails as pets' campaign

[rosanna123]

i would like to start a campaign to make snails a more popular household pet. when people think of household pets they think of dogs, cats, birds, hamsters, fish ect. they dont think of snails and yet when you mention that you own pet snails people give you wierd looks and think you are off your trolley cos you have these beautiful creatures as pets. well i want to change all that, i want to make snails a popular pet. also by doing this more research and tests should be done on them about the illnesses that they get. so please help with my campaign. i am look for people to advertise snails and how much of an easy, fun pet these are for young and old. i will be writing up leaflets and care sheets.
i am looking for volenteers to help promote this campaign, i will write up infomation packs for all volenteers.
all infomation packs will enclude, ideas of how to advertise the campaign, how to get people envolved, care sheet and a leaflet (please print out as many copies of the leaflet and care sheet as you need).
please e-mail me if you would like to be a volenteer and i will get a infomation pack sent to you ASAP
my e-mail is [e-mail]
thank you rosanna

[ness]

Well many folk have a disgust reaction when you mention snails. This often starts in childhood, so dispelling the 'yuk' factor of snails in kids isone way to go. Schools and nurseries are often interested, but generally more so if your kids attend or havce attended. One way of fostering an interest in GALS is to foster an interest in snails in general, and that they do have a useful place in the ecology of their natural surroundings.

Wildlife groups already do this, but there's no harm in spreading the word.

As for snails as pets well these are becoming more common already.

As for testing snail illnesses. Sounds great until you consider that to test these things you have to have test subjects, and that often involves artificially inroducing the disease to the creature, and then killing it to get the end-result data.
Science bodies will only likely be interested if either a very rare and valuable snail was being wiped out by an illness, or if there was money to bemade from a resulting snail pest control method that specifically effects snails and no other creature as an end result.
So could you be more specific on how you would research the snail illness?
The forums of the world are doing so already, in their own way, by learning from collective experience.

I'm not slating your idea, but I personally think that fostering a love/like/interest in snails is best served by first promoting native snails and snails in general in a positive light in learning about their benfits to the wider eco-system, and by spreading some interesting and fun snaily facts that people (especially children) like.

[fabrizio]

I fully agree Rosanna, and it's so frustrating to meet with the scornful attitude of people when you mention that

-First of all, gastropods are the 2nd larger group in the whole Animal Kingdom, I rebut; and it's mere ignorance (and arrogance) to despite them, as "useless, dirty things"!

-They are not only older, by far, than any human feats and pride of "Antiquity", but even older of most of the Vertebrata Classes...

-They enclose among them such Beauties, even a stern thinker as Immanuel Kant was, toke as examples of the so-called "Pulchritudo Vaga", that is, the "Natural Beauty in itself", existing before and beyond any human effort to create it.

-This is chiefly visible in the most "gorgeous" species, as the GALS usually are; and it's a good thing, I believe, that their appearance elicit some of the people's interest.

Yet it is wrong to stop there; and in my forum (italian), while dealing with breeding and selecting of GALS (and search of new ones), I try to arouse interest towards the local species, as well, and sadly I noticed too few people are responsive to that.
-Although one of the poorest countries in the World, as to native snail species, Italy houses at least some 4-500 species, most of wich are highly localized tough, and widespreading of the members on the whole country would make good of that.
-I encourage careful rearing of local species, breeding of local populations, that could factively help the preservation of them.
But very few people are responsive to that, as I said...

-What really upset me, is the interest (I agree with) for "shells' specimens" for collections, enclosing a lot of terrestrial species. I regret that, if a minimum of interest would arise for the *living* specimens of the very same species, a much more interesting 8and useful) activity could be promoted...

-If "dead-shells" collecting is generally prized, and not regarded as "madness" or as a "queer" thing, so why interest for the "live counterpart" of the same, much more beautiful and much more interesting, is so much under-valued, if not openly despised?

-Rearing the same species as living specimens, could make a *true* contribution to the safeguard of any possible species, while at the same time allowing most people to enjoy them, being engaged with an intelligent and "constructive" activity.
-New data could be gathered by direct observation, and selection could bring along "new" morphs and shapes...

-and finally, the "void shells" could be available anyhow for "collectors", avoiding to take away any of them from the Wild!

-Most people do "reason" only with their belly, at most; so they look at snails only as "enemy" that graze away some of their crops, or as "delicacies" once cooked in the preferred "gastronomic" way ; they seem uncapable to look at them (and at lots of other things) with a more "evolved" eye.

-I agree with you Rosanna, to strive, as long as we can, to change that (to the extent it could ever be changed of course...)

-So, I'm fully open to collaborate, toward such a goal

[ness]

Fabrizio you have made some excellent points.
One of the views that I wish to highlight is the collection of shells. I agree very much with you. Some shell collectors do not harmlessly rome the countryside looking for empty shells. Some will be buying shells from people who make money out of finding prime specimens of living snails and killing the snail to clean out it's lovely shell.
Years ago people used to collect wild bird eggs. This has been illegal for years now (except in a few circumstances where a land-owner can take the eggs of a small nember of listed pests). Making the mindless killing of embryonic birds just so that you have an array of eggs to look at illegal and a prosecuteable offence is of course a very good thing for bird populations and wildlife as a whole.
Most people would view an egg collector with scorn. Most people agree that it is immoral, harmful and selfish, even for the common bird species.
It should also be considered the same for killing a snail for it's shell, but as Fabrizio mentions, there is a mentality amongst people that snails are just worthless pests.

To their credit www.britishshellclub.org.uk/index.htm foster responsible collecting, in that shell collectors should fully respect local laws on taking wild specimens, and especially laws on endangered species. It states that many members develop an interest in wldlife and conservation as a result of the hobby and some contribute to scientific data, which is good of course. Perhaps these same people only collect empty shells?

However the site doesn't appear to actively discourage the killing of the none-legally protected snails to obtain the shells. I also imagine the view on this to be split amongst members themselves?

There is a list of prohibited species though, which makes an interesting addition to the forum as snail keepers should not take as pets any snail that they see.
www.britishshellclub.org.uk/index.htm.

[ness]

I plan on contacting the British Shell Collectors with the following email. Any comments/suggested changes would be apprecited please before I send it, or indeed if you feel that sending it would be a good idea.
Thank you

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello,

Firstly I hope that I have typed this to the correct person. If not then I apologise and hope that you will kindly pass this on.

As a child I too enjoyed combing beaches for shells. It is relaxing and rewarding to do so, as so many of you will appreciate, and I still enjoy finding shells at the beach. Sometimes while out in the countryside my son likes to pick up and keep empty land shells..
Mollusc shells behold a beauty in their variety of form and structure.
What I find distasteful is, however, that some shell dealers and collectors actively take part in, and condone, or at the least turn a blind eye to, the collection of live specimens to kill the snail for it's shell.

Although your website encourages the good practise of fully respecting the local laws in this respect I do not see any discouragement of killing snails in general.
I appreciate the statement that some people develop an interest in nature and conservation as a result of the hobby, which of course is good, but conservation is only good for living creatures! Rare species deserve protection, of course. I imagine that the vast majority of your members agree whole-heartedly. Surely though ALL living species deserve to be able to go about their business without falling victim to the whims of someone who fancies the shell? Do your members place value in just the shell or in the snail as an entire living creature?
Again perhaps opinions on this vary amongst your members?

Wild bird egg collecting is illegal, even for common species (except for a few listed pest species on owned land), and is viewed mainly with scorn and contempt.
Often similar feelings of outrage are not extended to the humble mollusc, but it is uneccessary killing for a trophy just the same.

I would please request any information that you would be kind enough to provide as to any articles of this moral aspect of the hobby, and also any in fostering an interest in living snails.

I am a member of snail forums, interested in living snails, many of us also keep the shells of snails that have died from natural causes and fully appreciate their appeal. We are aware though that there is a trade in snails killed for their shells and of course find that very distasteful, but feel that perhaps the way forward would be to foster an attitude of respect for the living, whilst still being able to enjoy collecting and anylising already emtpied shells.

Any views on this matter would be appreciated. Thank you.

[fabrizio]

Thank you Ness for your appreciation and I agree with concerns, and likening (mere) void-shell-oriented interest, to the one once flourishing for collecting eggs.
Both of the approaches, could be described as "necrophiliac", when prevailing upon upon other, Life-oriented approaches.
-I too, enjoy some void seashells since childhood, collect (void) ones, and preserve the shells (often a sad keepsake) of my kept snails, once they have "naturally" died.

-Although seeing in it a reductive, sadly reductive interest, I don't blame the sense of shell-collecting in itself, both "valuable" aestethically (better than a "lifeless" serially-made ornamentation, after all), or as a sample species-reference sources for scientific/classificatory purposes.
Anyhow, I strongy believe that the "Living Being" does come first; and its caring doesn't rule out the keeping of its shell, at the end.

-At the same time, while concerned wth Science, Ethics (and the chance to make something useful and "enjoyable" at the same time, by caring/breeding as many species as possible), I see as a negative fact, when "laws" become involved in something that is "natural", pretending to come on and regulate, still more often to cut away totally, forever, the links that tie the Web of Life with Mankind.
Sadly, "laws" act only in a "subtractive" way; not only they are devoid of the power of construct anything, but they act by forbidding others to do that -somewhat similar to an "amputation".
-Despite faith and reverence that people have towards them, no law nor lawmakers could ever be able to save, say, an ill person (so a dying species); yet most of the new therapies, in any medical fields, despite years of hard work to being developed, are made unavaible to needing people by the mere "NO" of some lawmaker/politicians...
-The very same does happen, as to "saving species".


-I believe that any "endangered" species would be kept alive and really protected, not by means of barbed-wire, bans, fines or the like... "laws" were surely effective in "protecting", form any kind of collecting (and captive breeding, as well!), the rare snail Rachistia aldabrae ... but all that proven (too obviousy!) uneffective at all, against environmental changes (that could be climate but any other kind of "newelty", as a infective spore brought in by winds or the like).
news.mongabay.com/2007/0813-snail.html

-It is sad to admit, but some well-known living species were (and are) actually preserved not thanks to the laws, but rather "in spite of" them! So, the New-Caledonian gecko -Rhacodactylus ciliatus, is still among us thanks to Biologists that take away a few of them in the early '90, when the species was re-discovered. Soon, local authorities issued a "ban" on exportation. A very meaningless "ban", as the specied had disappeared again fron the wild, and possibly forever!
Yet those "few taken specimens" -not that, the reason for "disappearing" from the wild, I believe- , were carefully bred, then widespreaded among facilities and enthusiasts, that resulting even in apparition of "new" morphs and types (=increase of genetic variability of the population, after all).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhacodactylus_ciliatus#Captivity

-By now, any enthusiasts could *actually* enjoy that -otherwise remote and out of reach- wonderful Living Creature, making at the same time a contribution in the sens of its further preservation.

-If it was only for that local "ban", say, if it had been issued just a little before, now we would have been left, with a "hanging in the air" ban, a disappeared (and anyhow almost non-existent Species), a red line upon an arid, lifeless species-list... and nothing else.

-If "protection" was conceived in a "constructive", positive manner, rather than in the "negative/repressive" way -the only one, "laws" are capable of, species as Rachistia aldabrae, and many, many others, could be still around... thanks to breeding projects/plants, in which even "private" breeders as we are could have been involved.

(in very small scale, I knew that something similar was carried on by London Zoo, with the "Partula Project"). In fact, "endangered" species should be the *first ones*, to be reared and propagated!
This should begin with recognized local plants, where the risk of losses is minimal; then, once reached a good number, part of the specimens could be released, other (fundamental) should be kept as reproductors, and the "surplus" could be widespreaded to (possibly "recognized") private breeder, that ensuring a "redundancy" of the whole conservation strategy.
-When you wish to preserve a precious information/data (and DNA is information, after all), you store them in various, different places, *detached" each other; this being the best strategy.

-And as I suggested before, a "recognized" status to serious and concerned breeders should be acquired and granted, somehow.
-The involved breeders should be "linked" -very easy today, thanks to Internet- with some "professional central hub", to get guidance and suggestions when needed, sort of "Remote assistance"-
-Any reproduction and death could be reported, to have a overhall picture of the status of each species.

-It makes almost nonsense, after all, to declare "protected" some micro-species, you could -being unaware of- crush hundreds of under your boots when strolling in the wild... none would probabily blame/fine you for that; while, paradoxically, you can be incurring in that, if found to rear and actively breed/propagate, the very same species!!

-"Protection" has to be conceived in a totally different, constructive/factive way.

-Given perhaps some 30,000 known species of land snails/slugs, -excepting the really difficult to keep ones, of course-, try to think that if just a person out of 2,000, just in the sole UK, would keep/breed and propagate a different species, the whole amount of existing ones would be *really* preserved! (and made directly enjoyable to Mankind, of course).

-If so - called "Biodiversity" is intended as Mankind Richness, then, -rather than adopting threatening measures- Mankind itself should be enlightened to appreciate it.
-At the same time, you can really "appreciate" what you're bodily involved within: from this viewpoint, "breeding" of any possible species would either 1) bring such "richness" in contact with people, able to appreciate it, and 2)contribute to factual, active and positive conservation/growth of the same, said "Richness".


-At the same time, I'm afraid that any "critics" towards shell-collectors, even a "soft" one, could sort out the opposite effect; it seems to me, they are quite keen to invoke legality, as if an "alibi"; and they could easily counter-blame snail keepers, that "keep enclosed live specimens".

I know that invoking more "strictess" against someone's actions, brings along only a "overall" increase of Strictness, against *all*... and the more you are in good-faith the more you are striken by that!
-It is good to consider, that -while "ethically" (and "environmentally")- much more questionable, hunters are much more respected and protected, than live animal-keepers and breeders, no matter how good and responsible they are...
-Any "official concern" raised against shell-collectors (a prized and recognized field, we must remember), would rather affect us at a much higher degree, I'm afraid...

.........................

-What I would rather propose, to shell-collectors Associations, is to take in consideration the possibility, at least as it concerns the most "common" species, the ones they don't mind to collect alive (and kill thereafter), to keep them for breeding, passing them to some responsible and knowledgeable breeder, that could, in turn, reproduce and propagate the said species.
(void shells of dead snails could even "return" to the shell-collecting world, in addition...)

-Most species are still quite "common", routinely collected (and killed/let to die); these are precious, sometimes even un-repeatable occasions, to get live specimens of a certain species, and start its propagation, as CB lineage.

-I see cleary, of course, how difficult it would be to make all of that come true... yet I strongly believe it's the way, leading both to (snails) biodiversity preservation, and to its direct enjoying by concerned, understanding and responsible peoples.
And even a small step towards that, would be a promising. beginning.

[snailgals]

i think it's a great idea

[ness]

Thank you Fabrizio.

Attitudes take time to change, as you say. Egg collecting was probably deemed as perfectly acceptable, and now folk are cross with those who do this. Attitudes changed, was it due to the law or due to people becoming increasing aware that what we take from the wild has an effect to the species or the ecosystem, sometimes a drastic effect. Maybe it is a combination of both that has changed people's views.

I appreciate that an aggressive outcry towards the shell collectors would in turn come back on us.
Your suggestion of encouraging them to send the snails to keepers in return for shells when the snails die is a good one. Perhaps some folk would consider that, but I fear that many wouldn't be wanting to go to the trouble of careful and responsible postage and waiting for the shells to return. Fostering a good relationship between shell collectors and snail keepers would also hopefully foster a value towards the snail itself amongst shell enthusiasts, and it would appear that they may have knowledge that can be shared with us.

I'll give things more thought.
There is perhaps an option to invite shell enthusiasts to forums, though I wouldn't want any of them posing as a keeper just to get hold of snails to kill! However if they are up-front about what they want they would perhaps get some shells from our dead snails, and would hopefully notice that snails are valuable live.
Then again would I want to deal with someone who condones the killing of snails for their shells? Not really no. There are many things to consider really.

Both hobbies, their's and ours, need to be responsible with what we collect of course.
Getting involved with the careful breeding of rare species makes sense, all in collaboration and controlled via a network, as you suggest. I have had similar thoughts before. However knowledge and care is the key, so many people take rare species to keep or to sell, and due to lack of knowledge or lack of care, the animal dies, and even thoughs with the very best of intentions end up making things worse. Unfortunately I fear even your good suggestion needs some kind of regulation, and the cooperation of environmental groups too. Introducing disease to these animals is a danger when taking them out of their natural environement.
There are many species though that are extremely difficult to keep, especially some of the tree-dwellers and specialised feeders.

And to your point about scientific breakthroughs and discoveries being unavailable to people due to laws, oh there is so much of that going on. It's such a sad situation. It is also due in part to money, people want to ensure they can make decent money before making things available.

[ness]

Going back to Rosanna's suggestion.

Firstly I suggest you set yourself an allotted budget of both money and time for this.

Then look at what you can do within the time and money budget.

Think about your target audience. Are you encouraging children or adults? You will probably need a different approach for each depending on age.

Think of what motivates people to dislike snails, perhaps write a list. Is there anything you can do or say that would make people reconsider their views? How are you going to get that message across to people? Perhaps you could put up your suggestions and let people contribute before writing your literature.

Are there any existing groups such as wildlife groups that are already fostering an interest in snails? If so why not ask them for suggestions, or ask for permission to distribute their literature, or to quote some of it in yours?

Many people's prejudices towards snails extends to other 'mini-beasts'. A mantis would be repulsive to some folk. Personally I think they're fascinating and beautiful. It's just an example, but there are plenty of folk who are repulsed, or at least don't see any value, in many inverebrates. I wouldn't expect any of these to suddenly become an enthusiast in little critters, but arming yourself with information about how useful these animals are to the overall environment and ecosystem is perhaps a good way to go.
Then there is fear. Many creatures can look scary but are not. I know someone who couldn't pick up a moth for fear of it stinging her. I explained that moths can't sting. It sounds obvious, but people's fears are often born out of a lack of knowledge, and a fear of "what if this creature can do this or that?"
Then there's dirt and disease. Are all small creatures little mobile vectors of deadly pathogens? No. Again there is a common misconception that all insects etc found around the house must be gotten rid of or else you'll catch something nasty. Is there a way of dispelling people's fears? Again it's knowledge.

Prejudice and fear often starts in childhood. I work with children, I see their parent's prejudices passed onto them. I have worked with several little kids who have squished every minibeast in sight, because their parents have told them to. We encourage the children to observe them with magnifying glasses, and talk about the lives that the little beasties live, what they do, what they eat etc, why they can be useful. We tealk about how fragile they are, and harmless to us. Just gently making children think a little deeper about the living world around them.

What ever area you choose to concentrate on the hardest part will be getting the message across. Personally I think literature needs to be quite short really, esle people are not likely to read it, but with links to places where they could learn more - websites etc.
Needs to be appealing to the eye, and suitable for the age range.
You need to be sure of your facts, and also careful of gramma and spellings. (I'm a fine one to talk, my spelling is not good).

You could include a variety of snails and write a short fact on each - for example a beautiful but endangered Liguus species, a wild species native to Europe, and the role they have in the eco-system, and a GAL, and how these large snails make good pets.

The last tip for anyone wishing to take part in this compaign is not to be over-enthusiastic! Really, I see people promoting here and there and often where they're just not wanted, so don't spam and don't keep on at those who do not respond. Also I see folk who get very enthusiastic at the beginning and run out of steam fast, and give up. Rosanna I think if you delegate jobs please be careful that they will be reliable, especially if you spend money on producing anything for folk to give out.

[fabrizio]

Thank you Snailgals for your agreeing and thank you Ness for your appreciation, and for your long and detailed reply

-You are suggesting, with the due "caveats", something that could become constructive and useful for both "categories": in fact, if shell-collectors were enticed in our point of view, some of the collected snails could find a way towards some of us (better the nearest to the availabe source), and be "saved", by putting in suitable environment for future breeding.
That alone wouldn't ensure us "success", of course...
Moreover, that wouldn't stop as soon, the killing of (common) snails from anywhere, to provide "fast" availability for impatient collectors..
-But if it works, and even at the small (initial) extent it could work, it would represent a Difference; it could be the beginning of a watershed, in the whole approache towards these Living Beings.

-It's truly possible, as you hypothize, that some shell-collectors could turn in snail-keepers/breeders/lover, once given the chance to appreciate how fascinating these creatures are when still alive.

-You point out at a real, sad problem, the actual difficulties of keeping some species, as the tree-dwellers; yet, it seems that some breeders are slowly taking the knack of that, and most of the unsolved points could be resolved by involving experts, in the web-structure I suggested to develop with the help of Internet; this too, could begin as something very small, to grow more and more along times, if the idea works.
In order to keep properly and propagate any species, we have to be aware of its needs; but the same knowledge, on the theoretic side, is needed to "pure" Science, too.
-A lack in knowing "what does eat a certain species", could mean 1) a lack of communication with achademical world (a thing to be amended), or 2) an absolute "gap" in extant knowledge -something, that should be correctd as well!

-It's sadly true, that the few species offered as live specimens, come usually unaccompanied by any useful data. We would need localities data, in order to learn and reproduce local climate; and type of soil, vegetation and the like, "where a said snail was found", would address us towards more correct housing, and suggesting what the preferred food would be.
-But usually, we get no such data! And we are forced to blindly guessing, sometimes lucky, sometimes it's a failure...

-Yet, I know that -at least for seashells- place-collecting data are "precious", and the actual "scientific" (but even financial) value of any shell specimen, is conditional to their availability (and "certifiability").
-So, if we were allowed to get such data, -just the ones, "dead shell-collectors" do usually require and get for their specimens, we would take a much higher chance of success, even with some "unprecedented" species; and establishing soon some sound CB lineages of them.

-Of course, bad intentions could even lurk within shell-collectors, and greed for getting soon a "beautiful specimen" (or making money soon by selling it) could even be present... I don't believe it could spoil the whole idea, however; at least, until it will stay as a "minority" fact. The large of the Organization would still run, and make much more benefit than harm, in a overall balance, if most of the working people -even in not all- would be rightly-minded!

-There is a big inertia to be overwhelmed, on the side of the shell-collector world to take into consideration the possibility of dealing with (at least some) live specimens.

And there is usually skepticism or despising from the achademical world, towards so-called "hobbystic" snail keepers (how a reductive naming, in much cases!)- but they don't take in account, not yet, how invaluable contribuition to both Knowledge and Conservation could issue from hundreds, perhaps even thousands of caring and concerned peoples, once encouraged and involved; although they are "only private keepers"!
Each of us could, even in the limits of her/his narrower/larger resources, give a partial contribution, summed up to all of the others, to make something, no individual Institute could ever be capable of!

-Both of these "gaps" are to be filled, bridges are to be laid between "us" and "them".

-Benefits would surely arise, the more or the less, for any of the concerned parts; as well as for the Living Species themselves!

[ness]

Thank you again Fabrizio for your input.

Perhaps the next step would be to organise a contact with shell collectors (after discussing what to say)

I wouldn't know the best way to try to organise getting involved with the captive-style of conservation though.
I'll have to have a think.

[fabrizio]

O.K. Ness, let's focus upon these points, then

-And we could confront, suggest or debate upon here, any best strategies to go along!

[rosanna123]

thank you everyone for all your input, i have found reading it very useful and it will help me with the campaign lots, anything you can do to help please do, thank you again

[ness]

Agreed Fabrizio, though I feel perhaps we should start new threads as we've taken over this one! These are (links) Collaborating wioth Shell Collectors
and Conservation by Captive Breeding programmes