Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Jan 30, 2015 14:35:42 GMT
You could also cook up some of the food for her and blend or mash it into a smooth past and see if she could eat this failing that use a syringe like Mango n Lemon suggested.
Zorst
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Post by Selena on Jan 30, 2015 15:55:18 GMT
Thanks, i'm glad too, but not sure yet. i thought a snail's recovering before and the day after he died. I am looking for information about prolapsed radulas and how it looks like. There are different levels of prolaps, right? and Zanna have a very little prolapse, but it is difficult for her to eat and since she layed the eggs, she need a lot of food but is too tired i quess. Maybe, if i didn;t found her in the substrate she was starved to dead.
I have feed her soft food and she is able to suck the food in her mouth, Could she recover from this or do i have to feed her soft food the rest of her life?
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Post by Selena on Jan 30, 2015 16:00:16 GMT
You could also cook up some of the food for her and blend or mash it into a smooth past and see if she could eat this failing that use a syringe like Mango n Lemon suggested. Zorst Thanks, i mashed mixed food for her and she can suck the food by her self and try to use the radula. Sometimes it works, but not as usual and very slow. I think its a very little prolapse. maybe i try to syringe.
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mangoandlemon
Achatina tincta
Animals are not a choice for me. They are a lifestyle!
Posts: 671
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Post by mangoandlemon on Jan 30, 2015 16:19:16 GMT
Maybe you can syringe her food until it repairs itself?
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Post by etana on Jan 30, 2015 18:55:10 GMT
Wow, a snail that lays that many eggs at once and has mouth problems would definitely be exhausted! Good thing you noticed what was going on.
I don't know if mouth prolapses can heal, but since she's able to get some kind of food in her even without a syringe, maybe you'll just have to have her on the mash & smoothie diet for now and hope her mouth gets better. Good luck!
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Post by Selena on Jan 30, 2015 20:22:26 GMT
Yeah, i'm very glad i check all snails daily because of the other ill snails. I mashed several kinds of well nutriced food and put it near zanna while she was sleeping (NOT deeply retracted) she just woke up herself and began to eat the mashed vegetables. So cute, she came not fully out of her shell and her head semi covered under her shell. She took a piece of food with her front 'wings', turned her eyestalks almost in her food and began to eat very carefull but hungry, it looks so sweet! and i'm glad she is eating herself anyway!!
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Post by etana on Jan 31, 2015 6:16:51 GMT
Aaaawww, that sounds really cute. I love it when snails do that when they eat (hold on to the food, look at it with the eye stalks bent down). It's like they really really appreciate it! That's good that she didn't deep retract and is eating by herself with good appetite, even if slowly and carefully. I hope she'll continue to eat and improve with the mashes.
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Jan 31, 2015 7:04:22 GMT
Great to hear that she's eating by herself again, and it'd be worth making sure she has plenty of cuttle fish or calcium around because laying that many eggs she'll sure be needing it.
Zorst
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Post by etana on Jan 31, 2015 10:45:38 GMT
I was wondering what could be done if her mouth isn't working well enough for her to rasp cuttlebone? What would still allow her to decide how much calcium she needs?
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Jan 31, 2015 11:21:57 GMT
scrape it for her n leave it on the cuttle bone so she can eat it herself when she wants it,
Zorst
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Post by Selena on Jan 31, 2015 21:05:47 GMT
Today Zanna was much better than before, she layed 1 last small egg and started to climb and this evening i had put her back in the healthy container. I put mashed vegetables near her and she started to eat and eat.. and eat... and eat... took a bath for an hour and produced a thick poo and then... she began to eat again! Not carefull, but very big mouthfulls During the male she even feld a sleep a few times on the food and when she woke up: she began to eat again. Her mouth problems seems to get less, maybe it is not a prolapse but she just couldn't eat normal because of her exhausting?
Cuttlefish is a good idea, i put one near her but she didn't eat it yet, I have also tried scaped cuttlebone but snails seems not able to eat it because its poudre and it sticks on their skins before they could eat it. how could i do that?
Zanna:
Mancha (yesterday)
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Post by etana on Jan 31, 2015 21:30:37 GMT
How wonderful. What ever was the reason that she couldn't use her radula before, it sounds like it's going away and she's enjoying herself. Perhaps she really was so tired from all the egg laying that using even her mouth muscles was hard.
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Post by Selena on Jan 31, 2015 22:18:51 GMT
Yeah, i think so, i was in shock when i found her deeply retracted, because of the strange desease that prevails. She came out her shell that day and looked so very weak and couldn't eat or move. I thought she definetely was going to die. Poor snail, she was just very tired of all the eggs and is a very strong and healthy snail she is recovering so soon after all the eggs. news for Nicho as well. Yesterday and the day before he was very weak like i wrote before. i found him fallen site wards out of his shell with a distorted body. I put him in his coconuthouse and thought he might be dead soon. Yesterday i gave mancha a shower and feed him and let Nicho rest. Today i cleaned up their tank (mancha was disgruntled about the substrate, he refused to touch the ground, maybe a bit too wet or nematodes??) and replaced Nicho in his coconut. He had not eat for a week and no poo as well. I put him in a plastix box in the tank so he have more rest. Suddenly he woke up and started to climb out of the box. (a few days ago he wasn't even able to move forwards on the ground)I picked him up and gave him a bath and a shower and he looked cheerfull. He eat some mashed vegetables without doubt and in the tank, he payed attention to other snails and was awake for a very long time and he eat cuttlefish. so maybe there is still hope for him as well. I changed my mind about the treatment. I do feed them and give them showers and baths. But one very important diference: i let them rest and do not wake them up for a male (even if the time between the males is longer than an etmal). They are sleeping much longer than they used to, but after the rest: they look much better. De died fulica's where not sleeping at all their last weeks. I think an ill snail needs more rest and its not good to wake them to feed them. Skipping a day with food to let them sleep seems better than wake up for a male once a day. I
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Post by Selena on Feb 4, 2015 17:56:26 GMT
Zanna is doing well but Nicho very ill and will die soon. Mancha have much ups and downs. Yesterday he suddenly retracted very, very deeply (while he was eating)in his shell and stay there till now without moving or being awake.
according to the letal end of the other fulica illness its not unlikely mancha die as well
I still have no idea what it could be.
Zanna retracted a bit deeply after laying many eggs and today i found her sister retracted too deep as well. But she also just layed a lot of big eggs and was very hungry and dry. hopefully the deep retraction is caused by exhausting and lack of food because all the eggs in their cases? Otherwise: i'm afraid it is a virus ore bacterial infection and contagious, but i don;t want to think about that yet, it will be terrible. .
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Post by etana on Feb 5, 2015 18:59:25 GMT
The egg laying is one big and certain factor at least. My Halonen is a very big fat happy snail mom, and even she was retracting weirdly and falling off walls & not caring much after laying her 100 egg clutch. I've found stories of snails dying from egg laying exhaustion if they can't get good food after laying. So just keep feeding your tired mom snails good nutrient rich food, if it's just the eggs making them tired they'll be fine eventually.
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Post by Selena on Feb 6, 2015 7:00:17 GMT
Hi Etana, Thanks for this very usefull information! I knew the egg laying process must be exhausting,but didn;t know exactly. and its very good to know they need to eat and drink soon after the process. I have a very big tank and many places to hide and lay eggs. sometimes they are far away from the food and drink source and after laying eggs, it might be difficult for them to wake up and search after food. from now on i will check all moms, because i have 10 healthy fulica's and all pregnant! Btw: Zanna and the other mom both eaten very much and recovered soon. But i have more snails full of eggs so i will keep an eye on them. T I have a few helix as well, they changed after laying eggs (indeed much falling, lost waight) given the ill snails last time i'm constantly in shock if i find a snail a bit deep retracted, and its a relief it could also caused by something else like egg laying.
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Post by etana on Feb 8, 2015 9:14:43 GMT
You're very welcome. Wow, 10 moms is a lot, you'll be very busy looking after them! I'm very glad to hear Zanna and the other mom are fine now. My Arianta snails lay a lot of eggs too, and so many times I've found the mom passed out completely limp and unconscious on her clutch of eggs, far away from everything. In that situation I've carefully moved her on top of food. The big old Rudolf has been very much loved by the younger snails, and the other day he laid a small clutch of eggs. It seems he was surprisingly smart about it: just before laying he ate lots and lots (even pulling other snails off of his food and then spreading out over it, hah, a good thing it wasn't the only piece), and he laid his eggs close to water and food and was able to easily help himself to them afterwards too. Last night he was mating with a young snail again, haha. I guess he's been through so much in his life, he's learned some things.
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Post by Selena on Feb 8, 2015 18:15:53 GMT
aaaah poor moms, worked so hard and completely exhausted. such a smart snail Rudolf!! haha looks like he realy learned from the past! Yesterday i found two fulica's again, too deep retracted. Everytime i'm in shock because the deep retraction. But if i check the soil near the deep retracted snail there are Always lots of eggs and indeed, far away from everything. When i put them on the food they directly (half way their shells) start to eat with big mouthfulls. Some of them didn;t retract too deep anymore after the male, but today a mom did retract deeply, even after the male. She layed very much eggs, i found them near her, she must had lost a lot of body mass. But i never red about deep retraction after egg laying, so i'm not completely reassured about it (because of the died fulica's last time you know. The deep retraction is not very deep, but it is more far than i used to. But sometimes i see pictures of snails on internet retracted that deep and nothing seems wrong with them. Are there so many reasons for a snail to retract to deep?
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Post by etana on Feb 8, 2015 20:14:44 GMT
My Halonen fell off a wall at least two times even though she'd eaten after laying. I gave her some extra protein-rich food, and she also had lots and lots of calcium, and only after that she stopped falling. It seems some moms take a bit more time to recover, especially if they lay a very big clutch. There are many reasons for deep retraction, but the serious ones get documented more, and that's why they are more easy to find. I've seen my small snails deep retract for reasons that weren't fatal. I've been afraid of losing them and there they are, almost all still alive many months later. I'm talking about retraction so deep, it's hard to see or touch the snail. The ones that died after deep retracting had a broken shell with dirt gotten into the hole, or sunburn. The survived ones have been really sad (one snail mourned the death of his partner deep in his shell, and took weeks to get over it enough to at least show up on the soil), really scared (especially the babies do this), or somehow deep retracting in their sleep as if they didn't notice they were doing it. Also one snail didn't appreciate me patting on him when he was resting in his shell, he only retracted further as I did and wouldn't come out for hours. He too is still alive, but he's very, very old and spends his retirement days mostly asleep, disinterested in everything except sleep and a bit of soft food now and then. Lovely, grumpy grandpa snail he is. So deep retraction (and I mean deep - going just a little bit away from the edge isn't anything) is generally a sign of sadness/weakness, but it may not be a symptom of anything fatal, the snail may just need some gentle care. This definitely applies to small species at least. I don't know with 100% certainty if it's the same with big snails, but I hope this helps anyway.
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Post by Selena on Feb 8, 2015 21:18:31 GMT
Hi Etana,
Thank you very much, its very usefull to read your experiences (are they all with small snails?) because i have absolutely no idea what is common and what is not according to deep retraction. I had no reference at all. i even doubt if i exactly know wat deep retraction is. What you discribe about its hard to touch the snail, i never saw that with my snails. fortunately they are still alive. Did you ever found out what was the reason they had retract that deep (besides the dead of his friend)did they recover from the deep retraction step by step or suddenly? i meand with deep retraction with (semi) adults: 0.5-1 cm away from the edge of the shell. The moms did that after the egg laying. The ill fulica's this thread is about, retract more deep in the week that led up to their dead (after they had not eat for weeks!), its like a 2 max 3 cm away from the edge, but i still can touch them and the deep retraction seems due to the lost of weight. In the mantel area appeared skinfolds as well, they lost much volume.
So a retraction max 1 cm away from the edge is quite common? Its nothing to worrie \about at all?
i have to learn a lot of snails behouvior. Its not as simple as i expected.
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Post by etana on Feb 9, 2015 18:46:11 GMT
Again, you're welcome. My deep retraction experiences come from small snails, I don't think I've seen anything as bad in my big snails. The big ones have never gone further than 2 cm from the edge; the 2 cm was Halonen after egg laying, and she's my biggest snail with her about 12 cm shell. Some younger big snail went I think 1 cm away from the edge at most for some reason, he's not doing it anymore though. I wouldn't worry much about a growing snail sometimes being max 1 cm away from the shell edge, if there are no mites. I've seen that behaviour come and go. I'll use a photo someone else has linked on this board before; if this is not OK, moderators may remove it. Here is very deep retraction in a GALS. This is a small individual, but the proportions of deep retraction would be the same in a bigger one. I couldn't find any photos of deep retracted snails with round shells like my Arianta/Cepaea, but picture your Aspersa so deep that you're not even sure how deep inside his mantle is, and the tip of the snail's tail is at the opening of the shell. Quite like in the picture above. That's the worst I've seen in a small snail that recovered and is still alive, it was the sad snail whose friend died. Here's how they've recovered: The only ones who continue living as if nothing happened are the ones who deep retract in their sleep. I guess they just really don't notice they do it. The other ones have taken some time to recover, except the scared snails who just need to learn they're okay, but that takes time too. These never go so deep that you can't see the mantle, but it looks bad anyway. The sad snail took a whole two weeks to do anything on his own. I kept putting him on food and giving him baths (it was odd bathing what was just a shell with a snail tail), he'd come out but just to dig another hole and deep retract again. He'd also pop his breathing hole a lot when I handled him. Finally he started eating by himself again and sleeping next to his kids on top of soil, and a week after that he touched another adult snail for the first time in weeks. These days he sleeps normally and is having more kids with his own offspring, lol. The grandpa snail, who is huge for an Arianta and thus slightly smaller than a small Helix aspersa, seems to always sleep 0.5 cm away from his shell edge. He's been much, much deeper in, but I just now remembered he actually had mites then. I managed to rid him of the mites and he stopped going very deep in, but he doesn't ever sleep right at the edge, always the same 0.5 cm away. He may be weak from age and it's easier to be deeper, where the whorl is smaller. Hope this gives you some perspective! Yes, some snails do deep retract to die, but like us humans, we have many reasons to lie down and some are more serious than others and lead to death, but we all lie down a lot without dying. You are absolutely right that snail behaviour is not as simple as one would expect! At first I thought snails were quite boring but very pretty creatures, but the more I watched them, the less I felt they're boring. They're all individuals with different lives, it's very fascinating.
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Post by muddydragon on Feb 12, 2015 21:17:31 GMT
Thanks for the concrete explanation, now i have a clear reference! you realy helped me to get less in panic everytime a snail retract 0.5 cm. I thought every retraction away from the edge mean a problem. Because someone here told me that in one of my thirst threads on this forum. that's why i'm in shock each time. i;m glad you gave me some concrete information about it. (quoted here as the other section of post about snail emotions has been moved to a new topic)
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Post by Selena on Feb 15, 2015 18:03:08 GMT
I feel the need to finish my bad news thread, hopefully the bad news finished for real as well. Unfortunately i have to finish with bad news again. Nicho died about a week ago and Mancha died today as well. He was the last surveiver of the 10 fulica's from the reptile store. and he was my favourit snail. I would have been very happy if he had make it, but it was not meand to be He seemed to recover during a period of time, but he finally stoped eating as well and became more ill and very weak soon. I did everything to save him, i tried to feed him and everytime he eat a bit, i had hope again. dispite i actually knew he was not going to recover. Everytime he got more weak i cried, today i cried a lot and now i'm crying as well. so probably this post is quite dramatic. He gave his life to the five little snails (not from the reptile store) who had retracting problems as well. After Mancha died, they got more active, happy and hungry. i will mention one of them Mancha.
This is how i liked him the most, enjoying his bath with his beautifull site 'wings' and typical spot. I will miss him
R.I.P Mancha and the others..
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mangoandlemon
Achatina tincta
Animals are not a choice for me. They are a lifestyle!
Posts: 671
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Post by mangoandlemon on Feb 15, 2015 20:36:07 GMT
Oh Selena I'm so sorry. At least Macha had his last days in compete comfort with you. Rip Macha.
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Zorst
Achatina tincta
Posts: 734
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Post by Zorst on Feb 16, 2015 12:28:58 GMT
I'm really,really sorry to hear about Mancha, I was so much hoping he'd be ok and survive all of this. Virtual hug
Zorst
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