Gut extrusion after feeding snail mix (includes pictures).

[michel]

Hi all,

Been a time since I posted anything on the forum, but still active (15 gals).

Pre-warning!! The pictures (below) are NOT nice to see. In the end the two gals are fine, but still...

Since the following happened again, after feeding my gals the mentioned snail mix (http://www.petsnails.co.uk/documents/snail-mix.html) some snails experienced "Gut Extrusion".
I don't feed them a lot of time the snail mix, only on occasion and foremost only when I clean the tank completely (and replace the cocopeat).

The first time it happened was about 3 months ago or so. Only one snail experienced "Gut Extrusion". After doing a long search on the forum, I thought I should put the gal in the freezer.
Then suddenly I noticed a topic (not etana's though, only saw that one just today) where someone punctured the "gut" and tried to push back everything gently with a cotton swab.
Luckily this worked and the gal was perfectly fine afterwards...!

Last weekend I decided to clean the tank again and replace the cocopeat again with fresh one. I also decided to give them the snail mix again. For some reason I thought the crushed oyster shells were the issue, so I left that out and replaced it with calcium powder (for consumption) to add the calcium to the snailmix.

Anyways, I started cleaning the tank and almost all gals were eating happily... After a few minutes I decided to take a quick look if they were still in their place (you know gals, if they don't eat, they start moving). At this point everything was just fine. So I continued cleaning. Then after a while I came back and I noticed some of them had weird looking mouths (it looked like it was swollen). Due to my previous experience with "Gut Extrusion" I knew this was a starting sign (early beginning) of possible gut extrusion. Most of them were also done with eating.

Several of them had "swollen" mouths, not all. The adults (3 of them) didn't have any issues. Also my biggest gal, who had the snailmix several times, never experienced this (and she eats a lot of the snailmix). Only some of the "younger" ones (6 or 7 months old) experience this. I am not sure if it happened to the same one(s) before. It's hard to tell which one is which (especially after the time which has passed in between).

So I stopped cleaning the tank and watched them. Obviously I also took pictures of everything (not a nice sight). The last time, only one had "gut extrusion", now suddenly two had this issue. One is a bit bigger, the other one a little smaller.
Anyways, I did the exact same thing as last time. I used a clean needle (my girlfriend has a beauty salon, so she has sterile needles). I punctured their gut gently (semi dark/bluish liquid squirted out). The gut decreased in size and the gal went inside. One was normal in about 15 - 20 minutes. The other one took quite some longer. I even had to puncture his gut a second time. FYI: I am no expert, but I don't think it hurts them that much. I think the gut extrusion "hurts" them more, than gently pushing a needle in their gut. But again; I am no expect and it's really hard to tell.

So this gal, as mentioned above, took quite some more time to get his gut back. So I forced him to go back in his shell, by gently pushing him. He went almost completely in his shell. In the meantime I gently pet his side. After a while he came out of his shell and everything was back again...! He was a bit scared for the rest of the day, scared for being touched and almost reacted to everything (straigth back into his shell). In the evening I decided to give him some extra gentle attention. Luckily after this he was less scared (and now he is even normal again).

Yesterday I gave all my gals fresh food. And they all were eating (also the gals who had the gut extrusion). It's great to see that these little great animals can overcome such things obviously. I don't think I would manage / survive this faith...

Since this is the 2nd time this is happening after feeding them the snailmix, I am wondering if I should give the "little" ones this snailmix. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but I followed everything to the letter. Even tried giving them the snailmix without the crushed oysters. Didn't make any kind of difference. Maybe the hemp seeds I purchased are not so healthy? But then again, why do the 3 big gals don't experience this...? It seems only to happen to the "little" ones (they aren't that little anymore after 6 or 7 months, but that's how I call them for the time being). All are growing well and they only experience this gut extrusion after the snailmix. Whatever else I feed them (yolk, courgette, pumpkin, watermelon, etc. etc. etc.) they don't experience this. Just and only with the snailmix... They even eat sepia like crazy and they are growing good (very big row of new shell in a few days).

I am pretty clueless what is causing this.

As mentioned, I took several pictures to give you an idea what happens when they get the snailmix.
One time can be a coincidence, but not twice in a row...

Warning!! The pictures are NOT nice to see. In the end the two gals are fine, but still...


Here several of the "little" ones are enjoying the snailmix (they love it)
Enjoying the snailmix

After a while some of the "little" ones get swollen mouths (as I describe it)
Swollen mouths


Gut extrusion one of the gals
Gut extrusion #1

Another shot of gut extrusion
Gut extrusion #2


Picture gut extrusion from above
Picture from above


Two gals with gut extrusion
Two gals with gut extrusion

Another gut extrusion close-up
Gut extrusion close-up

In the end everything was luckily good
Back to normal gal #1

Back to normal gal #2


So hopefully someone can give some insight. I am starting to think it might be the hemp seeds. But then again, why don't all gals experience this?
The hemp seeds I purchased are normally used for fishing? I purchased something like this: example hemp seed. This is not the exact one I purchased, but similar. I cannot discover anything bad with it?

Thank you for your time and reading this. Maybe I will never get an answer, but it might help someone else...
Please keep in mind; gut extrusion does NOT mean you gal will die. You will have to act fast though ofcourse!


Please also take a look at these useful stories on the forum:

- This was the original post which helped me the first time with gut extrusion
- Etana's notes on gut extrusion (only noticed this today)

[etana]

Thanks for posting this. I too wonder what causes the condition and am curious about any ideas. I know snails can have individual sensitivities to substances so maybe that's a possible factor with yours?

I agree that the puncturing is likely to be much less painful than the extrusion itself, because the pressure is relieved immediately and the snail can begin swallowing it back in. I don't know how much nerves there are, and to what extent the snail actually even feels the needle.
If nothing else, everybody whose snails get this condition should at least do the puncturing.

[seastar]

Mashed potato! That's freaky!  Glad your snails are fine now!

Do you wash the food that you use for your snail mix? Maybe it's simply because there are some pesticides or poisonous stuff on the food you use (if you use fruits or veggies). I've never experienced gut extrusion (can it even happen on Cepaea?), so I can't help a lot.

Hope your snails will still be okay!

Seastar

[etana]

Seastar, I suppose this can potentially happen to any snail, but Cepaea are very hardy. I've never had any of my wild caughts (Cepaea or other) get this, nor have I heard of a single case so far. (Knocking wood!)

[Cashell]

While this is very unfortunate to see, I'm glad that there's a lot more awareness and documented photographs of this in 2018.

[morningcoffee]

So sorry to hear that this has been happening to your snails.

I notice you mention that this happens after tank cleaning, how often are you cleaning the tank, and do you keep some of the old substrate to mix in with the new?
I have heard in the past that gut extrusion can sometimes be caused by keeping a tank too clean or changing the substrate too often, and thus not allowing enough natural soil flora and bacteria to exist in the tank. There is evidence that snails require this bacteria in order to digest their food properly (they have an eating/digestion cycle that involves occasionally eating the substrate).

[etana]

Ohh! Morningcoffee is right, full substrate changes should be avoided unless there are very severe pest problems in the tank or something. I forgot that completely when I replied earlier, I was so focused on the other things in your post.

I hope your snails are doing well!

[michel]

Sorry for the (very) late reply. I had some family issues and completely forgot about this thread.

First off; all the snails are doing still great! So my "treatment" worked well.

I doubt it has to do anything with the substrate to be honest. In the early days I did replace everything, nowadays I am keeping 30% and refill it with new substrate (same brand).
Since I never feeded my GALS the snail mix (since I posted the above) the issue didn't happen again.

So I am thinking it some ingredient I have used in the snail mix and I really think it was the hemp seeds I bought (at a fishing shop).
I am going to completely re-order everything and redo the snailmix.

I will create a new mix (everything bought from a health shop this time) out of:

- Hemp seed with shell (biological)
- Sunflower seeds
- Ground oats
- Pumpkin seeds
- Calcium carbonate (not much) *

* Calcium carbonate (consumer grade) which I also use to mix a few cups with substrate in my tank (I read it somewhere on Germans GALS forum). If interested this is what I am using: diacleanshop.com/calciumcarbonat-23

I never used "Chicken mash" as I really have no clue which one I should purchase in the Netherlands.

So I am hoping, when I create a new mix, that it was indeed some older ingredient which caused the issues (my bet is the hemp seed from the fishing shop).

Sorry once again for the (very) late reply...!

Regards,
Michel


//edit

These are the items I have ordered for the next snail mix:

- Hemp seed: www.denotenshop.nl/hennepzaad-heel-biologische.html
- Sunflower seed: www.denotenshop.nl/zonnebloempitten.html
- Pumpkin seed: www.denotenshop.nl/pompoenpitten.html
- Ground oats: www.denotenshop.nl/de-halm-haverzemelen-500-gram.html

(sorry for everything being in Dutch, but those are the products I ordered for my new snailmix; hopefully I ordered the correct stuff)