Help with ID

[Dumbledore]

I found some snails recently on the west coast, and can't decide if these are two separate species or if one snail is juvenile. Here the two are together:



The adult/larger snail: (Note: I'm not an adult, so my hand is pretty small compared to most adults' hands.)



Same snail making a face:


The juvenile/smaller snail:


Me holding snail up:



I'm guessing neohelix albolabris but not positive. Opinions?

[Cashell]

Sept 8, 2013 23:38:05 GMT Dumbledore said:

I'm guessing neohelix albolabris but not positive. Opinions?

You're on the right track, as these do look very much like snails from the Polygyridae family where the neohelix's are from, but because you have no pictures of their undersides and "lips" it's hard to say. For now, I'm going to say that they're snails from either the Mesodon or Neohelix genus.


Edit: I saw this picture in your other post, and this is a very good example of an underside shot that shows both lips and umbilicus (if any)

[muddydragon]

i'm no help with the ID i'm afraid but they are gorgeeooooooouuuuussssssssss

[Dumbledore]

I could post more pictures, what do I need to post?

[Cashell]

Sept 9, 2013 22:08:18 GMT Dumbledore said:

I could post more pictures, what do I need to post?

Something like the one I quoted above from your other post with the snail completely flipped over to show its umbilicus and lips.

[Dumbledore]

Hmm... If one of them goes all the way into its shell, the camera will be clicking!

[brunni]

Post by Dumbledore on Sep 9, 2013 at 1:38am
I found some snails recently on the west coast, and can't decide if these are two separate species or if one snail is juvenile



If you compare a) the animals and b) the shells you can see they are exactly the same, only the one on the right is more mature and has developed a thickened lip. The picture may appear a little puzzling as the smaller shell ( left ) has been photographed with a higher magnification than the other.
As to exactly what species they are..............well I don't have time right now to research.......anybody got ideas

[radular]

I apologize for replying to a post that was made several months ago, but I love identification, and this was too good to pass up. Further reason for posting here is that I thought these couldn't be Neohelix, because these snails just look too big to be related to the Neohelix albolabris I grew up with (that, or you have tiny hands, which I doubt... no offense).

After a lot of searching around for information, it turns out that, at least on the East Coast, for Neohelix & Mesodon, the umbilicus of Mesodon is not fully closed, while the umbilicus of Neohelix is totally sealed. The shell of Neohelix is also more depressed then that of the more rounded Mesodon (this said, the two are still very similar, and some species do have their umbilicus closed). But the big clue I would look at here is that Mesodon typically has a very well developed parietal tooth (a ridge or spine formed close to or inside the mouth of the shell). As your adult snail has no parietal tooth and has a closed umbilicus, I would say these are PROBABLY within the genus Neohelix.
I'm happy to admit that I learned something new from your post! Thank you!
...
Am I mistaken in my analysis? What do you guys think?

[Cashell]

Dec 31, 2013 5:16:41 GMT radular said:

I apologize for replying to a post that was made several months ago, but I love identification, and this was too good to pass up. Further reason for posting here is that I thought these couldn't be Neohelix, because these snails just look too big to be related to the Neohelix albolabris I grew up with (that, or you have tiny hands, which I doubt... no offense).

After a lot of searching around for information, it turns out that, at least on the East Coast, for Neohelix & Mesodon, the umbilicus of Mesodon is not fully closed, while the umbilicus of Neohelix is totally sealed. The shell of Neohelix is also more depressed then that of the more rounded Mesodon (this said, the two are still very similar, and some species do have their umbilicus closed). But the big clue I would look at here is that Mesodon typically has a very well developed parietal tooth (a ridge or spine formed close to or inside the mouth of the shell). As your adult snail has no parietal tooth and has a closed umbilicus, I would say these are PROBABLY within the genus Neohelix.
I'm happy to admit that I learned something new from your post! Thank you!
...
Am I mistaken in my analysis? What do you guys think?

And that is what caused me to be confused for so long when I first caught my "Neohelix Albolabris". All my living specimens have a closed umbilicus and no tooth inside, but after raising some babies from summer, when of them formed its lip with a very narrow hole in the umbilicus while the others have it closed?? Now I'm back to the same confusion from 2011 because of this! Why do Mesodon thyroidus and Neohelix albolabris have to look so superficially similar?!

[radular]

Well, that's odd... But I suspect that, lacking parietal teeth, these guys are still better candidates for Neohelix. Unfortunately, perhaps the best way to settle the confusion is probably to sacrifice a snail or two and dissect our the reproductive organs. The structure of the reproductive system is often used in defining species of snails.
...Not to say you should bump off one of these pretties! Don't get me wrong, here!
...
All this said, I wonder if there ave been any genetic studies done to determine the relationships of the members of Neohelix & Mesodon?

[Cashell]

Jan 1, 2014 17:04:23 GMT radular said:

Well, that's odd... But I suspect that, lacking parietal teeth, these guys are still better candidates for Neohelix. Unfortunately, perhaps the best way to settle the confusion is probably to sacrifice a snail or two and dissect our the reproductive organs. The structure of the reproductive system is often used in defining species of snails.
...Not to say you should bump off one of these pretties! Don't get me wrong, here!
...
All this said, I wonder if there ave been any genetic studies done to determine the relationships of the members of Neohelix & Mesodon?

Unfortunately I do not have the tools, equipment, knowledge or experience on dissecting snails, so that option is out for me! It's too bad they don't do DNA tests at the vets for snail species identification which would be a nice alternative to figuring out what you have. I think scientists should do more concrete molecular studies on these two to determine whether they should actually be considered sub-species or not, rather than full separate species within the same polygyridae family.

[radular]

Well, it's more a matter of two genera versus one genus, but I agree all the same.