My Ovum (GALS) has "mouth" issues...?

[michel]

Hi all,

About early January (2019) I started to have some problems with one my "older" GALS, which is an Archachatina Marginata Ovum (albino).
She's called Ovi. I have had her from day one and I think she is almost 3 years now. She never gave me issues, except for some weird shell grow, but seems to have become stable during the last year.
Ovi is my biggest GALS. I completely adore her, though she is pretty shy, which is pretty normal for species as far as I understand.

Anyways, back on track. Early January she started to have mouth issues / problems. I took a lot of pictures between then and now, so hopefully someone find them useful and can provide some advice with this. The full album is available on imgur here: imgur.com/a/o3I04W9

Here are 3 pictures which shows the issue pretty clearly (I hope the images work, but also be sure to check the full album above).







I did read etana 's excellent post and information on "Gut Extrusion" and though Ovi does not have any form of gut extrusion, I am still worried.

I do have have GALS which had that before, but apparently that was caused by poor quality ground hemp. Which was my best bet, as better quality I purchased elsewhere did not result into gut extrusion. Here is the original thread about what I experienced with this "bad" quality hemp (was for catching fish): original thread

Anyways, since I changed hemp this didn't occur anymore for the past few months with any of the snails. Weirdly Ovi never suffered from this, also not with the (as I call it) "bad" quality hemp. Only the other GALS suffered from it (every time).

Anyways, back to the current issue... I have no clue what is wrong with Ovi. It happens every day and though her mouth looks extremely abnormal (she never had this before this January) she eats "normal" (no sweet potato though and imho only softer foods), she poops normal and is mainly "active" during the night. When she is moving around she is pretty normal. However I do get the feeling that her head is shrinking a little and/or getting weaker/softer, BUT not completely sure about this. So this is a wild guess....

Anyways, I read the excellent topic about "Gut Extrusion" from etana. And I also noticed the following and I quote: "I'm going with a wild guess that there is a some kind of inflammation, and rub castor oil on his skin."

In the next few days the results, as described by etana, are very good and positive. So I am eagerly to try this out as well. However, I am obviously going to make sure that I get the right product and applying it correctly and thus not "poisoning" the snail. Because what I read about "castor oil" (or also called "wonder oil", if I am not mistaken) is that it's not that healthy when taking it orally (at least for humans, though some say it also helps with congestion). So this is why I am a bit worried.

So I hope anyone with some experience with castor oil (maybe etana) can provide some answers to my questions.

My first question is; which of the following ones should be safe for Ovi?

- www.castorolie.nl/biologische-castor-olie-250ml.html (Organic Castor oil cold pressed)

- www.chi.nl/castor-olie-eko.html (Castor oil, organic)
- www.lekkerinmnvel.nl/wonderolie (Castor oil French (Ricinus))
- www.heelbewust.com/natural-lifestyle/aroma/plantaardige-olien/bio-ricinusolie (Organic Castor Oil (Ricinus Communis))

I have no clue which one to take...?
I sincerely don't care about the costs, I just want what's best for Ovi....!


My 2nd question, which didn't become clear after reading etana's topic is how and where to apply the castor oil on the GALS.

1. Do you need to mix it with water or use it pure?
2. Do you apply it on the mouth?
3. How many times should I do this?
4. Will it be harmful for my GALS?

Sorry for all the questions but I want to be as well informed as possible. And hopefully someone can give some advice and or help.

If you need any other information, details or whatsoever. Please let me know!!

I hope this topic will help others also.

Regards,
Michel

[michel]

Okay after my above post, I took Ovi downstairs give her a shower and hold her on my hand. She came out the first and got a similar look as above (not that bad though).
After a while she went inside. About 10 or 20 minutes later she came out and she was suddenly pretty "bad" imho. This is the first time she was like the pictures below.

Below is one picture, the rest is in this album here: imgur.com/a/hWmdN65



Please advice.

I think I will order the first Castor Oil (https://www.castorolie.nl/biologische-castor-olie-250ml.html) so I have it at home tomorrow already.

I hope to hear back from someone soon!

Thanks.

Reagrds,
Michel

[michel]

Well, I received the castor oil as mentioned in my last post.
And I rub it gently on her mouth (she doesn't mind touching it).

But I am not noticing any improvements, though it hasn't got the same / or worse as in my last picture (which was really bad).

Will keep applying castor oil on her mouth area gently.

[Liguus]

It does look like the beginning of gut extrusion. All I can recommend is reading the guide about it on this site. I've never had to deal with gut extrusion in my snails so I'm not "up-to-date" on all the treatments.

[tigersnail]

I hope your snail's condition improves, sorry I can't offer any suggestions. Good luck!

[michel]

Yeah, I already did rad most topics on Gut Extrusion and as I mentioned in my first post, I already have some experience with this in general.
Anyways, I am applying castor oil on a daily basis. It hasn't been as bad as in my last picture I took / uploaded (thank God).

Her mouth is "okay", it's not as bad anymore, but still not fully normal. It seems there is tiny lump on her mouth; I don't think it's normal. But then again it was worst past week or so.

I was hoping etana would have come online, but she hasn't been online for quite some while unfortunately (Last Online: Jun 27, 2018 at 10:09am). I hope nothing happened to her?
She was a very, very reliable source of information. I even send her 2 private messages and I am hoping they will arrive to her mailbox... But I doubt it.

Anyways, Ovi is doing a (little) bit better; her mouth is looking somewhat normal, but she still has some weird behaviour (looking tired). She does not eat. I tried everything even mashing the food with water so it's easier to eat. I am guessing her mouth is hurtng. Who knows.

The night before yesterday, she was active and moving around the glass. Yesterday evening not so active (looked very tired). And this morning she was active again.

I will have chamomile / camomile tea. I also read this might help. As you can see I am trying every thing. I already lost one GALS December (who had been ill for various months) and I am not going to lose a nother one; I am really doing the best I can...

Regards

[michel]

Update:

Ovi is still the same sorta. Her mouth is doing okay; hasn't been as worse as the picture in my 2nd post luckily. Still looks a bit weird.
Unfortunately she is still not eating. I will try again this evening with some mashed vegetables and/or fruit. If she doesn't eat, I will put her on the food. Maybe she will get something iside through absorption through her foot.

Yesterday evening I gave her a bad with chamomile / camomile tea and bee polls in it. She didn't think much of it. I also put my other GALS in it (the ones who wanted that is).
I skipped giving her a mouth rub of castor oil yesterday. Will do it maybe this evening again after/if she has eaten.

Will try to update the situation every now and then. Hopefully she will pull through.

I took a picture of her yesterday, however you don't see her mouth very well, but that can also be something positive ofcourse.


Here is the picture of Ovi yesterday:

[michel]

A small update today. I am getting the impression she is not getting better. She also looks tired and somewhat weak imho.
No clue what else I can do to improve things unfortunately.

Past Friday late in the evening she was moving around in the terrarium. So I was a bit more positive about the situation...
However the last 2 days she didn't move around anymore and she is staying on the same place.

I took a few new pictures which shows the issue with her mouth more clearly:







The complete album with all pictures I took can be found here: imgur.com/a/goSMh7W



So it doesn't look very well. And here is a picture of how "tired" she looks and how she sleeps:





I wish I could do something to improve things, but other then the things I have tried so far, I am pretty clueless.
I am really doing my utmost best to get her back healthy, but things are looking desperate at the moment. Sigh.

I will give her a new bath this evening with chamomile / camomile tea and bee polls. After that I will put her in mashed food (apple, sweet potato, zucchini and a little scraped sepia over it).
Maybe, just maybe (doubt it) she will try to eat, otherwise a little bit will probably be absorbed by her foot. Later in the evening I will apply some new castor oil on her mouth. Though I don't it helps much. That or I am using the wrong castor oil or applying it incorrectly. Really no clue.

I sincerely hope she will pull through, but her condition is getting worse. At the beginning of this month (February) she was eating some apple, but after a week or so she stopped doing that and she hasn't been eating at all anymore. Really sad...

I will post some news in a few days and hopefully something more positive (crossing fingers).


//edit

I am even considering a human medicine called Iberogast at the moment.
I have no clue if it works or if it's harmful for Ovi, but at this moment I am considering everything to be honest.

In case you are wondering here is the product itself: www.iberogast.com.au/en/iberogast/
And here is the leaflet with all contents of this medicine: www.iberogast.com.au/en/infocentre/leaflet/

As you can see the main contents are various herbs. The only "downside" is that it has quite a high amount of alcohol in it (The medicine contains 29.5 – 32.6 vol.% alcohol).

I will wait a few more days, maybe etana will reply to my thread. Or maybe someone else with some experience has an idea?


Regards

[michel]

As promised an update... Unfortunately Ovi is still not better. She does eat sometimes (apple), but then she doesn't eat for several days.
She does poop; big dark brown poop, so I am guessing she is eating dirt? She has done this always and apparently for some snails it's normal?

Anyways, I now also have 2 video recordings on her mouth issue. I think her gut is being the main issue.
I still rub her every day with castor oil (mouth), but so far not much succes... Even tried a few drops iberogast as mentioned in my previous post.

Here are the videos:

Video 1: vimeo.com/user89811583/review/320321693/3cc0d2a053
Video 2: vimeo.com/user89811583/review/320321715/db2e03aaf2

Doesn't look good, I know...

Hope someone can give some advice; I was hoping etana to show up.

Edit 1: as I am getting more desperate, maybe I should try to stick a needle in that gut when she tries to eat. HOWEVER;

1. I have to act very, very, very fast (as you can tell in the video's).
2. I have no clue if this is a bad idea; I did this before with real gut extrusions, however then the gut was on the outside. I don't want her gut to "leak" inside her obviously.


Edit 2: Well something positive just now; I put Ovi in a bath with chamomile / camomile tea and bee polls and I also made some new snail mix (http://www.petsnails.co.uk/documents/snail-mix.html) + fish flakes and she is actually eating it now as far as I can tell.
So that's something positive. Especially considering it has a ton of good ingredients in it for her. Maybe she will regain some strength and feel better...?

[michel]

Well a small update; since 1,5 weeks she is hardly eating. Yesterday, I think she had one or two very small bites from the apple.
She is losing weight and getting smaller. Most of the time she sleeps. Sometimes late in the evening or early in the morning she is moving around a bit.

When I touch her "neck" I can feel a very hard lump/bump. I suspect this is causing the issues. I didn't notice this before, maybe it's becoming more apparent now she is losing weight? Or that it is growing. I have no clue what it is, but I am guessing it could be cancer? I did a search on Google about GALS/snails getting cancer, but apparently there is hardly anything on that.

I still give her a bad with chamomile / camomile tea and bee polls, however she just sits in there. I try to give her mashed foods (little warm to help her stomache) with water. Tried the snail mix and so on, but she is really not eating almost anything anymore.

So I am gussing she will die soon. I don't believe in miracles anymore, so...
Anyways, I will be going on a short vacation for 12 days. I have a very good friend living close by who will take my GALS in (in my old terrarium). So I know they will be looked after with great care.

I hope Ovi is still alive when I get back, but this is something I really doubt...

[etana]

Hey Michel, I just read your PMs, many apologies for not getting back to you earlier, and thanks for all the compliments in this thread. Things did get pretty difficult for me last year and I felt so overwhelmed, I couldn't even contribute here. Looking back on it, I should have, as it might have helped my mind to focus on snails and get a break from everything else that was going on. Anyway, to your questions.

The castor oil I got was medicine grade stuff from the best local pharmacy I know of. There is very little information around about using it on snails, so I went with some guesswork. I read somewhere that a safe dose to ingest for humans is 0.7 milligrams per 1 kg of weight (which is approximately the same in milliliters since it's a liquid), and that you can't really apply a truly harmful amount of it on human skin. Obviously snail skin is much more sensitive than human skin, so I wanted to be careful. My snail Darius, who has had recurring gut extrusions, weighs about half a kg, so I took a small medical syringe and measured 0.3-0.4 milliliters of the oil, put it on the side of his foot, and massaged it in as much as he would let me - he never bubbled when I did that, he only did the normal "ew, human fingers" slow retraction, which I took as a good sign, especially since Darius is a particularly grumpy fellow who will bubble very loudly if he's startled or hurting. At some point Darius started to reach over and eat a bit of it, too, and since he did it more than once, I think he figured out there was something good in it for him. If it had been to just get it off of his skin, I suppose he would have at least squirmed. I did this twice a day for several days after each prolapse, then stopped doing it to see what would happen. He never once has had the prolapse reoccur during the days that I give him the oil.

Darius is still alive and strong, he had a couple extrusions over the winter but it seems they are happening less and less frequently. I feel like I am only treating the symptoms and not the cause, though.

At this point, after what's been going on with Darius and a few of my other snails, I'm becoming quite convinced that there are different causes for the prolapse. It seems obvious to me that there must be pressure inside the snail for it to happen, and I still think that with some snails it's likely buildup of fluid resulting from inflammation. With some other snails it could be tumors. There could be something about their diet that perhaps irritates their digestive system and causes swelling, the most obvious thing would be traces of pesticide. One of my snails died just the other day with no symptoms whatsoever of long face/swollen mouth, he just stopped moving and eating, and right before death he had a small prolapse, but he was already gone when I found him with the craw hanging outside his mouth. Some other snails have looked exactly like your photos here, but the symptoms have kind of come and gone without advancing to full prolapses, it seems the mouths look the worst when they're asleep and (I guess) not consciously holding it in.

I do hope we figure this out on this forum at some point. It's frustrating that so few veterinarians are interested in snail illnesses.

[morningcoffee]

Welcome back etana and sorry to hear you've had such a tough time - hope things are improving for you

[etana]

Thank you, morningcoffee.

[Charlotte 🐌]

You poor thing, you’re taking very good care of them. They are in the best hands possible, I’m impressed by your attentiveness!

[michel]

Hi all and especially etana !

Thank you for responding. No worries at all! I am glad you found the time to respond (despite the difficult year; I know all about it as my mom passed away 1 year ago sigh).
Anyways, sorry for the late reply from my side. I was on a short vacation in the mean time and didn't check the forums until now!

I had a really big animal friend taking care of my GALS when we were away, however the day before I returned things got worse. This was a recent picture I received from my friend when I was on vacation.



As you can see it was really, really bad.

So I asked my friend if she wanted to stick a needle in there. Though it didn't look like the gut extrusions I have experienced so far with any of my GALS.
She didn't mind and carefully did it. First in the pointy part, later in the rest (according to hear it was the stomache as well?). Apparently a lot of fluid came out.

Later (or the next day, sorry can't recall) she was somewhat out of her house along with eyes. According to my friend she was more active.
She also bought bee polls and chamomile / camomile tea and gave her a bath several times.

In the pictures I received Ovi still looked not good imho. But then again, it wasn't as bad as in the picture above or what I had experienced so far...

Anyways, a day later she sends me a new picture and according to her Ovi ate some zucchini and sweet potato. However it's still a big guess if she really ate it or the other GALS.
However, it was in front of her and it looked on the picture that she ate it. If this is true, it was a pretty decent amount (given her condition).

When I got back past Wednesday from vacation; I picked up my GALS including Ovi. The first day (I guess; don't recall exactly) she ate some apple. Really not much, but something at least.
But after that she got worse again though. Well worse, she just looks ill. Not normal. Also she didn't eay anything after the apple anymore (approx 3 days or so I guess). Sigh.

I stopped applying castor oil, as she has no gut extrusion at the moment.

Something I did notice (and my friend told me the same thing) is that she has a lot of lose "skin". Just like a snake has. I think a better word for it is "membrane" here?
I can daily pull of several pieces. It's like when a snail goes into there home for sleep and closes his shell, but weaker. But since she is not into her home, I clean it.

I am passed being desperate and I am starting to think that she is maybe is better of dead. Don't understand me wrong; I am not giving up on her, but if she is in pain, this is not a nice way to live...
It's tiresome and sad to see her like this. I doubt she will pull through. Yesterday I though it was a matter of days, but hen she "improves" a little and gets her eyes out.

As a matter of fact, I am gonna take her out now and pet her a little.



Charlotte 🐌 thank you for you kind words. Really appreciated in these times.

[etana]

Hi, welcome back from the vacation! And sorry to hear about your mom.

This will be quick as I need to be getting to bed soon.

That photo is exactly how my Darius has looked like when he's had his full prolapses. Indeed it is a pretty awful thing to see and I am glad your friend was willing to puncture it. It's surprising how quickly they can go back to eating after they "swallow" the craw back in, I too have made more than one hole in it because else the fluid inside doesn't seem to come out fully.

The skin issue made me think a bit. Chamomile baths are good and soothing, but don't do them more than once a day, as the skin's own bacteria might go unstable from too much bathing, which would result in irritation. There shouldn't be anything on the skin itself that you can pick off of it, and continuously semi-sealing up like that is not something she should be doing.

Also ill snails need their sleep of the day, if they're in their normal nocturnal rhythm. I know it's nerve wrecking when you just want to check on her and see that she is ok.

Keep us posted. I do hope she gets better. My Darius is a pretty grumpy fellow, but he eats, poops, bathes and pushes tank decorations over like a big snail should, and now he has gone for a pretty long time without any mouth problems. I wonder if the tank he currently lives in is actually a better place for him than his original, quite crowded home tank. There are only a few snails in his current tank, all individuals that I need to keep an eye on due to some kind of problems. Stress would worsen any health issues, and even though many snails enjoy piling up for sleep and also doing other things in tight groups, Darius is not a very social snail and probably has an easier time with less tank mates, hence whatever causes his prolapses doesn't bother him as much now. Just my speculation, though.

[michel]

Hi etana,

Thank you for your kind words. Highly appreciated.

Okay so this is exactly what you experienced with Darius as well and this is what is meant with a "full prolapse". I never experienced this before.
So far I only had experience with "gut extrusion".

I don't give Ovi a bath every day or more than once a day to be honest. For example; I leave sometimes a day in between. I think the issue is also caused by the fact she never goes into her shell completely. Like last evening until this morning; she is almost fully stretched out. At first sight it looks like she is dead. And though I understand what you said that they need their sleep, I do touch her to see if she responses to my touch (in order to know if she is dead or not). I afterwards spray her a little with water, so she doesn't dry up.

But I will leave her alone a bit more. Maybe she is indeed sleeping (but in a very weird way). This evening (Thursday) I will give her a new bath though. Then I will do it again on Saturday or Sunday. And leave her alone, when I place her back. I can only hope she will recover from this, but I doubt it. Though the evening before she was a bit active for a few minutes and looked more like a normal GALS (still not 100% obviously). However yesteday was again a bad day; she was just laying there.

Good to hear that Darius did recover from it. I can only hope Ovi does as well. She is strong though; even in her current condition, her foot is pretty clamped together when I try to remove dirt from it (before I give her a bath). Ovi (before she got ill) was semi-social. She would look up her friends, but not always. She is the biggest GALS I still have and I have 6 others (2 different breeds) all in one tank. I think the tank that I have is big enough, as they can go anywhere they want without being "piled" up on each other.

The tank dimensions are (LxDxH): 75 x 55 x 50 cm.

I will keep posting updates obviously when I have the chance.

If you or anyone else has some other ideas on what to try, let me know.

Regards,
Michel

[michel]

Well a sad update today....

Ovi passed away, despite everything I tried.

Past Friday, when a friend was over to play some games and we were up late, I noticed a full "gut extrusion" once again.
I also noticed, what I thought to be, a gammarus (Amphipoda) stuck on her mouth, so I grabbed a pair of tweezers and removed it. However I know think it was her jaw! Sigh.
Apparently her jaw also came loose. Afterwards I should have left it, but I really thought it was gammarus (Amphipoda), as I gave it as food a day earlier.
I didn't apply any force, so it was loose already, but still... I feel really bad, because she never recovered from it (along with the issues she already had).

Anyways, after removing the (what I thought) gammarus (Amphipoda) I once again used a needle and she swallowed everything back. So I thought it was going to be "okay" or at least similar to the days before.

Int he morning my girlfriend woke me and she said Ovi was bad again, so I came out of bed and did the needle thing once more. But this time it didn't help; everything stayed outside.
Later that day (gut still outside) she was more inside her shell. At this point I thought that she wouldn't recover anymore at all.

I put her in smaller enclosure in the main tank, so the other GALS could still "see" her. I also sprayed her several times with water.
I went out that evening and when we came back, she looked still pretty bad and I didn't expect her to see her alive Sunday morning.

However she still hanged in there until early afternoon. Then she finally passed away.

It makes me really sad, but for Ovi it's better. As this was no way to continue for her. I know I gave my best 100%, but still I feel sad that she passed away.
This is my 3rd GALS I lost. I can only hope the others will live longer. I purchased Ovi when she was a baby on 3rd of November 2016. So she was not that old.

I will always remember her as my first GALS which "hold" her food occasionally, which was really fun to see. I will post a picture after this post.

Here is how she looked on Sunday. So maybe it's better that she passed away. I can only hope she didn't suffer that much. That would really break my heart.




As you can see for yourself; she was really in a bad shape / condition...

Here is a link to all pictures (album) from that day, for those interested: imgur.com/a/jDFxzq3
Maybe it will help someone else. To be honest; I don't think the castor oil provided any help. Maybe I applied it wrong, or I got the wrong kind. Who knows. Will search for a better solution, if (hopefully not) this happens again with a different GALS.

One "good" thing; she is now with my mother who passed away on early 2018. She adored my GALS and called them her "grand children" as my girlfriend and me do not have any kids.
But I am still pretty sad. Especially when you spend so much time and energy on Ovi, like I did and she still didn't manage to pull through...

[michel]

Here is the picture as how I will remember Ovi; the GALS who ate with her "hands" in better days.
She was so cute when she did this...




Ovi RIP (14th of April 2019)

[etana]

I'm really sorry to hear about Ovi. You did your best, and she died loved, I'm sure snails feel it.

That's a really great pic of her eating, she looks like she's really enjoying herself, eyes in and all.

Darius has never had a gut extrusion happen again that fast (knocking wood). Whatever was causing Ovi's extrusions must have been very severe.

Virtual hugs. My thoughts are with you.

[michel]

Thank you etana for your kind words. It's a shame and saddening, but it's better for Ovi.
This is not the way any animal should live.

Yeah, she did that often; it was like she was holding her food. Not always, but often. So fun to see her.


I really don't understand the cause to be honest. It started with a small "peak" mouth (I will look up the pictures I have from back then) in early/mid January.
After that things got worse and worse. Oh well. All my other GALS are fine though (thank God).

Ovi is still on my desk, but I will put her outside under glass tomorrow, because I am starting to smell her (not that bad yet).

Sidenote; what's the best way to keep their shells shiny after they passed away (and their shell is empty)?
Because I still have a GALS outside under glass, which is as good as empty (died in December), but I want to make the shell shiny and keep it.

Thanks in advance and thanks again for your kind words.

[pearthesnail]

I'm so sorry to hear about Ovi - she was such a beautiful snail it broke my heart reading this post - I've never seen gut extrusion that bad before. She looks like she was very well loved and taken care of and happy in your care. I believe snails know that they are very much loved by their owners. Sending hugs your way

[michel]

Hi all,

It's been awhile. Thank you once again for all the kind words. Really appreciate the warmth and friendliness.

I still miss Ovi. She was very special to me. Luckily I saved her shell, so she is sitting on my desk. Compared to the other GALS I have, she was really big.
I bought a new snail a week or so after and another one a 2 months later. Both of them are Archachatina Marginata Ovum's; one is dark brown and has a black stripe and is called Gremlin. The other one is white (similar like Ovi, but not with black pupils) and is called Mogwai.

Both are doing good and I now have a total of 8 GALS. So I have 2 Ovums, 5 Purpeas (or whatever they are called) and one Fulucia (white jade, almost 3+ years now).
All are doing well, except for the white jade; he is retraced into his shell almost every day. When I gently touch him he still (luckily) comes out and responds. But I doubt he will be around much longer. Though I hope otherwise obviously!

I give him a baths (with camomile tea and bee polls) and I get him out a bit more often then the others. Not much else I can do. He eats, but he was always a fuzzy/difficult eater. More than that I cannot do unfortunately.

I was trying to make a XMAS card with my snails on it (not all ofcourse), but the result was not good enough. Will try again next year and start sooner!

Here is a XMAS GALS picture:


Regards,
Michel

[littlegoldsnail]

Sorry about Ovi, losing a snail is sad, but she’s in a better place now. Sweet pics. Glad you got new snails!