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Post by Paul on Apr 29, 2005 20:02:38 GMT
There had been some discussion about a snail society on cybersnails. I know people replied but I think it deserves a thread so I have posted a couple of the mails to give everyone reading this an idea of where we are up to. More ideas please. Sophie, perhaps you can you explain in more detail about your "save the snails" group... paul <br>==== Hi all, I believe we have discussed this before, but I'd like to ask again. How do you guys feel about a European Snail Society? I'd like to hear what you think, oth good and bad. At the moment I think it may be useful for a number of reasons and it would be nice to see if you shared the same interest in this. We may be able to get access to information more readily It gives us a voice that may be heard better when asking for information We can possibly get funds, for information purposes and possibly even for the events I think Gray suggested It is easier for people to find us We can come up with a better way of sharing information, not just amongst ourselves but to shops and private owners; we may be able to correct a few malacology sites while we're at it Have you any ideas of what it could achieve or what it would entail? Don't think your opinions aren't worth hearing, say anything you wish. Kind regards Fredrik ================================== Hi, I've just spoken to Fredrik about this and I know he's just nipped out so I will answer for him although I'm sure he'll reply. The answer is, we just don't know. We are wondering if anybody else has any idea how we could do it, or what it could achieve. I mean, we know it would require a number of people to help out. I've been researching snails and there are papers that could be bought. And some can be obtained for free by certain organisations. I think it could give us a way to collaborate and pool our efforts. Just imagine how many internet pages we have all looked at and how many people have been contacted separately. We could all make all sorts of enquiries on behalf of the society so we split things up to make it easier for us all. I know there was talk of a snail meeting. Maybe a society could solidify that, help us to even organise fund-raising to help with travel expenses for overseas members or even arrange seminars/lectures of interest. I would love to hear a lecture from the South African Malacology society. Who knows! If people would like that kind of thing. Who knows what kind of opportunities it could give us? This recent idea of clubbing together to buy Tiger snails is an example of how we can use a society. It could be set up properly, so we get a trade account with places. So the answer is still, we don't know but we'd love to hear feedback and ideas.... paul ===================================== i love the sound of this idea and would like to discuss in more depth in an easier manner (no offence cybersnail) my msn is dj_ravine@hotmail.com but msn aint working just now for me but hopefully soon. putting this together wont be too difficult, i ahve experience with various organisationds,committees and founding committees and organisations. i can sort a website and prolly get free hosting, but ideally would prefer someone else to do web design although i could do it at a pinch, i can write stuff for it and am sure the rest of the members would be willing to co-operate and donate and write stuff. what we would want it to acheive would be various things, writing papers, collecing papers and correcting papers is pne, educating people, unifying standards and naming and providing a comprehensive identifying paper for shops and that. we could have meets and stalls at shows and that. take snails along and show them off etc .. preferrable we would like o affiliate with certain societies eventually but thsi cost money and that. theres two i can think of that would eb appropriate. fbh - the federation of british herpetology at a pinch and focas - federation of companion animals. we do seem to have huge number of people interested in snails and so it could work perhaps a pound to 2 pound joining fee. we could then set up an official snail trading and breeding program and could prolly help self regulate the selling of snails by making sure they are correctly identifyed and that. also if we agreed a price to trade snails at could stop people making stupid profit when selling for silly prices. might not work but it could be worth a shot. and in all, we could have fun, meet up and enjoy ourselfs and snails. i am def interested and can help in many ways. def need to disuss this further. if anyone wants to ring me about this ie paul then email me and i will send a phone number. regards ceiron =============================== Hi, Glad to hear your interested. As for the website, I wrote: www.petsnails.co.uk/with this kind of thing in mind. I have all the hosting sorted out and I can write any software we need including stuff to allow us to work collaboratively. So, that side is sorted, I am ready willing and able. paul
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Post by fiona ager on Apr 29, 2005 22:19:35 GMT
hi i think its an excellent idea, may attract some well needed attention. It will open a few extra doors, give us more choice of breeds to obtain through diffrent countries.
Trying to get hold of the tigers has been a nightmare. There is just not enough info or awareness about GALS FI
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Post by fredrik on May 1, 2005 23:51:49 GMT
Judging from some of the messages on the cybersnail there seems to be an interest of a snail society.
What do we have to do to get this idea working? Is there any of you members with experience of setting up a society?
Regards Fredrik
-"I am not addicted. I'm just going to buy one more snail, then I'll stop. Just one more..."
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Post by ceiron on May 4, 2005 14:19:47 GMT
Judging from some of the messages on the cybersnail there seems to be an interest of a snail society. What do we have to do to get this idea working? Is there any of you members with experience of setting up a society? Regards Fredrik -"I am not addicted. I'm just going to buy one more snail, then I'll stop. Just one more..."funnily enough i do, well actually a few. not sociteys as such, but a few youth councils, st john ambulance county youth council, race realations council, couple of school youth councils, junior federation of briths herpetology and been meber of various youth councils. and tbh it was quite difficult and a long old process with all of them and even with experience it really doesnt get much easier, but if we have willing people who are dedicated then it will work. we got a wide range of skills so dont see any problems there. if we use email, yahoo/msn meeesenger etc to communicate as well as this forum then it shouldnt be too difficult as meeting up isnt really going to happen but theres nothing stopping us meeting at shows and perhaps having a table providing information on the various gals. any more info or help on my part then dont hesitate to ask. it would aslo be a good idea if it acted as an umbrella group for the variosu othe rgroups, ie cybersnail, here, save the snails and sarahs houghtons snail rescue group, as well as the various other websites and that.
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Post by Paul on May 4, 2005 16:21:42 GMT
I totally agree about being an umbrella organisation. That's one of the main reasons I started this site. Most sites tend to come from a "my snails" angle if you see what I mean. I wanted a place to be a hub for everyone and to catalogue all the information we can find. To be encyclopedic.
Part of the reason I am pushing to get us all discussing it is the fact that there is way too much to do for one person. When I built the website I was working flat out, even when I shouldn't have been to knock something in to shape that will get across what I intend. To put in a foundation and to produce something tangible for people to get behind. And I think we are at that point now. And I just can't keep that pace up, it has just opened up more avenues.
If we all collaborate we can achieve amazing things. I have recently managed to acquire 14 research documents on snails with the help of Fredrik and Caroline. Some of these would otherwise have to have been paid for. Also, the last copy harvard.edu has of Bequaert's book is on it's way to me as we speak with the help of Janet in the US. And the website is now sponsored by snail2die4.com. They're generously giving us 10% of their monthly profits to help with costs. I intend to use the money to further the research we are doing.
Lastly, when I look at the malcology sites and see lots of blunders and mistakes I've realised that in the end it comes down to us as a hobby group to make this work. I have contacted various experts and they have not got back in touch. We have the advantage of being a group of people with access to many species for observation and study. Our knowledge combined as we speak would no doubt be fairly impressive. So it needs pouring on to a website so we work synergistically, that way we can all put our time in knowing that we are not doing what others are working on.
How exactly we collaborate is yet to be seen, but I am sure we can organise ourselves properly to save time and effort.
paul
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Post by pheonixx on May 5, 2005 7:13:34 GMT
Count Daz and I in Paul..anything you want doing give us a shout..Linda PS May sales will be better than aprils LOL fingers crossed.
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Birte
Archachatina marginata
Posts: 25
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Post by Birte on May 7, 2005 22:24:31 GMT
i just talked to fredrik, and we thought that it might be easier to organize snail societys in each country. so there won't be language difficulties inside the society, and it would be much easier to organize, than a europe one. of course that doesn't mean, that they can't work together. for example, once a year could be a huge european meeting, that is organized by one country. the next jear it would be another country. so that every society has to oranize one, and everyomne has to travel some jear, if they want to take part.
what do you think about that?
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2005 15:29:54 GMT
I don't think it is a bad idea in principle but I wonder if it defeats the object a little. One of the most attractive ideas of a society for me was to get everyone working together researching information. I think splitting this up by country would impoverish that quite a bit.
I understand from a communication point of view, but from a centralised point of information angle, I'm not sure it is a good idea unless we could find a way to pool our efforts.
You see, before, when I asked around about language difficulties it seemed that everyone had concluded that it wasn't a problem, most Europeans speak english so efforts to translate etc were redundant.
Can you explain what the point of splitting it up is? I know you mention communication within a group would be easier. Fair point, but I can't see any other advantages at all.
paul
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Birte
Archachatina marginata
Posts: 25
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Post by Birte on May 8, 2005 17:28:43 GMT
i just thought that it might be earier to organize a society inside one country, than a european one. of course that would be much more work, and someone has to be responsible for the whole society. but if someone wants to do all this work, there really would be no advantage btw. was just an idea
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Post by ceiron on May 8, 2005 17:39:03 GMT
i am up for lots of work, missed the meetings on yahoo coz i am a planka nd totally forgot about thema nd diodnt turn on yahoo messenger. duh! country bound groups doesnt really work tbh, we could ahve seperate meetings and stuff for the specific countrys but open to all incase anyones visiting or is rich.lol but one central umbrella organisiatin works for me tbh. European Snail society has a good ring to it. hmm, wonde rif ess.org is taken will check.lol edit, all ess urls are taken and i liked the ring it had
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2005 18:31:04 GMT
Hi,
Ceiron, you didn't miss much, we had loads of problems getting everyone in the same chat room for a number of reasons. So, it had been postponed while I sort out a better way. If you're thinking you may have a solution here is what we need.
Not a yahoo, MSN, ICQ, Aol etc chat room Cannot be Java or ActiveX or anything that is not guaranteed to work on browsers other than Internet Exploder. Must be able to get to the room without having to be invited Must be able to copy or save the conversation
paul
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Post by ceiron on May 8, 2005 18:47:07 GMT
not asking alot then.lol all i can think of is a mirc chat. can download mirc for free or use chatzilla on firefox. i know how to configure both. both are free downloads and both will log the chat but then they arent much different to msn etc ... so dunno.
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2005 19:04:24 GMT
I am gonna look this week. Hopefully I can host a freebie or if it comes to it, I'll write one for us all to use that does what we need. I can have one written in a week if we just want simple features.
paul
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Post by Paul on May 8, 2005 19:15:48 GMT
Birte, it has been brought to my attention that I sounded angry. That is not the case at all. In some ways I agree with what you said, I just wanted to inspire debate!
If I did sound like that it is a real shame. I want everyone to speak their mind and not worry about upsetting anyone, especially me lol.
paul
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Birte
Archachatina marginata
Posts: 25
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Post by Birte on May 8, 2005 21:05:38 GMT
hey paul, you didn't sound angry it was just a spontanious idea, but i think you're right. although it would be easier, it woulnd't be, what it should be
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Post by Paul on May 9, 2005 6:05:09 GMT
Hi everyone, I wanted to discuss a few points about this society idea. Firstly, something has been bothering me regarding the website idea. So let me talk about that first: "it would aslo be a good idea if it acted as an umbrella group for the variosu othe rgroups, ie cybersnail, here, save the snails and sarahs houghtons snail rescue group, as well as the various other websites and that." Ceiron, you seem to be leaning toward writing an entirely new website for this society should it come to fruition. I'd like to make it clear that when I began work on the website it was intended to be different from cybersnail, save the snails and other people's personal pages. That was the entire point. I didn't wish for a site detailing all my snails. I wanted to aid the community, and to use my site to compile information to make it encyclopedic and to glue the community together in loads of cool ways. I have been trying to do that since I started it. Now, it may be that you never saw the development version which has the members section available to view and I am wondering if that is the source of confusion, perhaps for others also. I wanted my website to be the hub and archive for a society. In truth I hadn't thought about a formal society at the time, but a community all the same. You are suggesting registering a different name. I have no problem with that at all, but I think the domain would be better pointed at a section on my website. If we don't do it this way we lose all integration between the society members and the facilities my site will eventually have (some of which are nearly ready now). I am not bothered about the name petsnails.co.uk. My original name was pulmonata.co.uk and in fact, if you go there you will reach my website. The petsnails.co.uk was suggested as being perhaps more accessible to younger people. So, my point is this. Not only am I lucky enough to have access to a hosting environment, I actually built and installed the server myself, and I administrate it myself. So, this gives us total control over any facilities we need. I get most internet services for free anyway but because I am the superuser on the machine, we can do things that would never be allowed or available on a normal hosted environment, should the need arise. This gives us the equivalent professionalism that only companies could match at practically 0 cost. I'm not saying it would always be free, but it will always be a lot cheaper. Secondly, I think creating another website would greatly impoverish the project in some ways. We would lose all the integration that I have worked hard to make possible. Members of a society hosted on my box would get access to all the custom snail software I am currently writing. I don't wish for my site to be one of the things under the umbrella so-to-speak, to me that doesn't make sense. I am happy to change the name of the website to something society related but it was intended to be the backbone. Personally I think leaving the name as it is fine; at the end of the day when you split the encyclopedic and community part of the website away from the society, there isn't much left in terms of pages needing publishing. The society part would have it's home on the same site, with a good distinction between the various areas. One of the major problems a multinational society would face, is facilities to improve communication between us, to collate our research and to stop duplication and repetition in terms of effort and information. With it being part of my website, I can write custom facilities to enable us to do whatever we need, rather than try and cobble together things that nearly do the job. I have many, many ideas about this. If the need arises (and I think it will) I can author a full admin section so members can actually add and alter the information on the website themselves. I think we will need this, it empowers people and offers a way to involve all members regardless of how techno-savvy they are. And we will need all the help we can get. It seems counter-productive to re-invent the wheel and to lose the integration and control we would otherwise have. Sorry to bang on about it, I am not trying to dictate here. If everyone thinks that this is a crap idea, I will understand. It is just that I have a particular interest in this area. I wanted to offer the skills and resources I have for something truly worthwhile and having put pure time into it to date I'd like to see it used to the full rather than be made redundant or a very similar site authored from scratch to go alongside it. To sum up, my website is at the disposal of ALL the society members, it is not my site alone and can be changed as we see fit. I hope this doesn't sound arsey, and I am not directing it solely at you Ceiron. Not at all. It is just that your post gave me the opportunity to make my point. Ok, next thing...... I talked to Birte who had talked to Fredrik about individual country societies and an umbrella one. I think after discussion we thought it would be better to have just one worldwide society. Instead of formal country societies under that, members of a society based in one country can meet up, do whatever they want without such formality. We may as well all stick together. I am a great believer in collaboration. It is likely that more active members in a country will take on jobs that need doing to make our work accessible to others in their country. For instance, someone in Sweden or Germany etc could translate a newsletter or document if needed. We don't need to split it up so formally. It makes things far less complicated in my opinion. Membership cost. I am unsure about this, firstly I think children should join for free regardless. I really wouldn't like to exlude anyone who wished to join. In my heart, I would like it to be free for everyone. I think money could be raised in other ways. It could be donation based. Perhaps members would donate if they felt like it. Or we could run competitions, snail auctions etc. To begin with, we need maximum membership and I see the idea taking place mostly on-line to be honest, with costs fairly low. Some people will hopefully be able to meet up and maybe we can even arrange a lecture or something but not everyone will be in a position to benefit from these things. I am currently getting sponsorship from Linda & Daz (thanks once again!). I am putting this towards buying books and scientific papers etc. I mean, I think we can cover the costs we need initially fairly easily, through various methods. Another idea would be to offer a free membership but if you pay you get something. I don't know what though. I think free membership will not only give us more reach to people who are not well off, it will also reach more people generally. This is important if we are to climb the mountain of research. I personally am interested in what we could all create together and what we could learn, not the accolade of being a member. The society is a fantastic way to bring us together, but it is not the point in itself if you see what I mean. Roles. It has been discussed that we need people to offer their services in terms of roles. Benevolent leaders if you will, not to have the say, but to organise and keep everyone focussed. I think it is a good idea. I offer to do all the coding and to maintain the knowledge base. We need a list of what roles are needed and who fancies doing what. No doubt some jobs may need to be shared. I know Correne has offered to be secretary. I think one of the advantages of the society is that we can set something up where we can have a contacts system, allowing anyone to reply to emails and enquiries and we can all see what is going on. That should help spread the work load and we'll all have common email addresses we can use. I think formality is not necessarily a good thing at this stage. After reading a lot of the structure of other societies etc, they seem to offer things we perhaps cannot provide yet such as books written by themselves etc. We can aim to become as professional as them but for now I think we need to set something up as we see fit and start doing stuff under one name. Perhaps we can formalise the affair on paper when the need arises. I think the biggest barriers to us now are getting everyone heard and finding the information. Communicating by typing is not the same as thrashing it all out in a room together. We need to reaffirm where we are up to at every opportunity. So I intend to create a society category on this forum. That way we can split the topics up to make it easier to follow. For the information side, things need to be researched. I have trawled the web looking for information and I think in many cases we need to bombard people in the know with questions. So, to remove repetition we will maintain a list of who's been contacted about what and when and what websites have been found. We will compile a list of every snail-related page we can find. Not only is that incredibly useful from a directory point of view, it stops us all saying "have you seen this link?" over and over again, lol. I hope this has been food for thought. If it has, then bon appetite Over and out. paul
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Correne
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 208
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Post by Correne on May 9, 2005 8:32:56 GMT
Fantastic. Well-said. Thank you for the clarification - I understand so much better now. I am delighted to help with this wonderful project in whatever way I can. Corrie
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Post by ceiron on May 9, 2005 15:17:01 GMT
ok, sort of clear now.lol say sort of coz i am still a bit lost, not sure where though sounds ok as the idea goes. ceiron
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Post by Paul on May 9, 2005 17:01:40 GMT
Cool, we'll have to have a chat by phone about it all. It's bloody hard trying to explain myself here. I keep getting worried I sound aggressive. I am not intending to be. So just for the record for everyone, I never mean to offend and please, please, please say whatever you wish, no holds barred. I have thick skin lol. What we are trying to achieve is the most important thing, individual egos are not The truth points to itself. And as Doug Stanhope says "you don't need to be told things are great, if they are you'll figure it out for yourself" lol. I'm just glad we have people who are keen about it all. For me, a little ray of sunshine has peeped through the clouds and life has started to form on planet earth again. paul
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Post by ceiron on May 9, 2005 19:48:30 GMT
nps paul. i know your not being aggressive, been there a few times, the stress is massive :S i just seem to ahve caught the wrong end of the stick.lol sure it will clear itself up.
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Correne
Achatina immaculata
Posts: 208
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Post by Correne on May 9, 2005 20:07:44 GMT
For what my opinion is worth I feel that it is never easy to convey feelings either in a forum or e-mail. There's so much to be said for eye contact and body language. I often make a comment that is subsequently misconstrued.
However, everyone who loves their snails realizes there is a need for collaborative thought, discussion and sharing on this subject. PetSnails is by far the most informative site that I have found regarding Giant African Land Snails and I am proud to have been guided here at its birth. That said, Paul's site has links to many wonderful sites. I don't know what I would have done without them ALL.
My daughter, Darra, bought her first GALS in February 2005. A couple of weeks later, I bought her another GALS to keep the other one company. This was from the same supplier as the first. They (the pet shop) did not tell me anything worth a d**n. They omitted so many important facts and deluded us with many false assumptions, one wonders if another thread may be required.
We did not know (and were not informed) that fulicas bred like crazy. When I saw their eggs, some part of me suddenly fell in-love with these creatures. New life! Wow! Suddenly these previously interesting creatures became beings to seriously love and care for.
I wonder if anyone shares my view that the more you find out the more you do not know? Our family is comprised of softies. We love all of our [many] pets and care for them deeply.
All of us: me, my husband Matt and our two children, Darra and Danny are so grateful to all of you. Thank you.
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Post by fredrik on May 9, 2005 21:49:23 GMT
There are alot of things I would like to say, but I miss words. I always worry that the things I write can be misunderstood. Call me silly, but that's who I am. I find it hard sometimes to express feelings and actually write down the things I have in mind. And then I have to translate my feelings and minds into another language, which I haven't been using for a long time. It's hard for me, since I sometimes have difficulties to express my feelings in my own language. I rather keep my mouth shut, instead of speaking out. Thank's to two recently found friends, I have now started to build up a courage of speaking/writing in a different language. I owe them alot. So please, bare with me. I'll try to reply to more E-mails and posts. But it might take some time. And if you ever read one of my messages/posts and find it difficult to understand and/or if it seems to be offensive, let me know, it could be me, having trouble expressing what I really would like to point out... As for the society plans. I really think that you said it all Paul. Thank's for explaining. What can I offer to the society? Well, I'm a crazy Swede and every organisation need an oddball. I am full of ideas and I can make things happen when feeling well. I have some experience that might be of some help when keeping snails as pets. I have contacts with animal breeders/collecters/dealers, in different countries. I have also been told that I have a very smooth way to talk with people, so I could work as a contact person. And if there would be fighting in the society, I would be the one to solve it, since it used to be my proffession before I got ill Well that's all I could think of at the moment. Best wishes Fredrik
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Post by bookitten on May 28, 2005 11:40:55 GMT
By the way, this is a little off topic butwe could have one week in summer, spring, winter and autumn when we all go into our gardens and put out a big feast of fruit and veg, then, collect all the snails you can find and put them on it. In summer and winter I think we should make a shelter tho too.
sophie
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Arno
Archachatina puylaerti
Posts: 1,493
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Post by Arno on May 28, 2005 13:04:25 GMT
Well the snails in my garden always get the old food from the GALS,so they are pretty spoilt anyway...
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Post by bookitten on May 28, 2005 14:21:45 GMT
How can they be spoilt? they get mouldy left over food!
hehehe sophie
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